Infidelity

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Women are held to much higher standards when it comes to sexuality and "morality." I can't believe anyone would even question this. It's so glaringly obvious.

Boys will be boys- how many times have we heard that?

Who was questioning the sexuality and morality of women?

There is a much bigger double standard when women cheat on their husbands, and especially celebrity women.

I mean, you're here giving Tiger a hard time because he's not going to give up his career. We even had a Tiger Woods thread to discuss the whole (private) matter. Yet, I don't remember a thread about the LeAnn incident. Had there been a thread, I might have even known that she'd cheated (although, I still wouldn't have cared). When LeAnn cheated were you giving her the same gruff about her career? Did you roll your eyes when her next CD came out?

Was the husband hot? So hot he didn't deserve to be cheated on (because when it comes to celebrity cheating, apparently looks are the final deciding factor in whether or not someone 'deserved' to be cheated on)? Were there a bunch of outsiders stepping up to say how they'd have "treated him right" because he's so hot and brilliant and couldn't possibly ever do anything mean-spirited?

And to tie this back to Queerdom, because I could give a good rip about straight celebrities cheating on one another...we can see these exact same attitudes played out in ButchFemmeDom...even including the same commentary.

Butch cheats: oh, how could anyone cheat on SoAndSoFemme? She's got so much going for her. I wouldn't do that (even though I don't know her from Adam or Eve). ThatButch is such a dick. SoAndSoFemme is so hot. ThatButch needs to move out and blahblahblah

Femme cheats: Wow, ThatButch must be such a dick. I wonder what ThatButch did to deserve that.

I have yet to hear that either one should give up their careers though.


Have To Get Offline Soon,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Who was questioning the sexuality and morality of women?

There is a much bigger double standard when women cheat on their husbands, and especially celebrity women.

I mean, you're here giving Tiger a hard time because he's not going to give up his career. We even had a Tiger Woods thread to discuss the whole (private) matter. Yet, I don't remember a thread about the LeAnn incident. Had there been a thread, I might have even known that she'd cheated (although, I still wouldn't have cared). When LeAnn cheated were you giving her the same gruff about her career? Did you roll your eyes when her next CD came out?

Was the husband hot? So hot he didn't deserve to be cheated on (because when it comes to celebrity cheating, apparently looks are the final deciding factor in whether or not someone 'deserved' to be cheated on)? Were there a bunch of outsiders stepping up to say how they'd have "treated him right" because he's so hot and brilliant and couldn't possibly ever do anything mean-spirited?

And to tie this back to Queerdom, because I could give a good rip about straight celebrities cheating on one another...we can see these exact same attitudes played out in ButchFemmeDom...even including the same commentary.

Butch cheats: oh, how could anyone cheat on SoAndSoFemme? She's got so much going for her. I wouldn't do that (even though I don't know her from Adam or Eve). ThatButch is such a dick. SoAndSoFemme is so hot. ThatButch needs to move out and blahblahblah

Femme cheats: Wow, ThatButch must be such a dick. I wonder what ThatButch did to deserve that.

I have yet to hear that either one should give up their careers though.


Have To Get Offline Soon,
Dylan

I never gave Tiger a hard time on cheating. His press conference was an apology to his sponsors and a way for him to participate in this year's major tournaments. I said that then, and I said that now. I think he's a slime for lying and cheating (if he did cheat- since I don't know what he and his wife may or may not have agreed upon). I would think his wife was a slime if she cheated on him. I would think my next door neighbor was a slime if she cheated on whomever.

I missed the LeAnn incident. I'm not a big country music fan and don't watch tv, so I miss most of the celeb gossip.

I don't see the double standard within butch femme circles either. A lot of times a butch femme couple is two women, btw or two females,- one is butch and one is femme (not always of course)- so why would straight man/woman "standards" even apply. Anyway, I don't think cheating is viewed too kindly in butch femme circles whether it's a femme, butch, FTM or other gendered person doing it. I don't see the outcry being much different than within lesbian circles (where it is two women).

[Apocalipstic]

Again I say if people handle their business with honesty and respect then there are no problems.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Again I say if people handle their business with honesty and respect then there are no problems.

j

Amen Sistah! Emphasis on *people*.

[Soon]

Getting back to Leanne Rimes thingie--the rumour is that her husband is gay--but who knows.

Also, she left her marriage very shortly after her affair was (sorta) outted--they were spotted a restaurant. (he left his wife too) Now, they are together. There wasn't a huge maligning of Leanne, probably b/c they both left their marriages and are together?

Tiger and Jesse seem to be a bit different in the volume of women involved and the fact that they all seem very umm...short term fuck kinda situations. Also, I think with the Jesse/Sandra one, it was particularly painful (for some) to watch it unravel because she had just made the publicity rounds at all the awards' shows (and interviews) proclaiming her love for this man whom she felt "had her back" and trusted like no one else prior to him--which is why she married him. The sympathy for Elin might be b/c she is a mother of two young ones and also, possibly, the public shock of the image reversed of Tiger as being this role model of sorts and a solid *family* man.

I am a total follower of the celebrity goss. I need the scoop.

Oh, I also think that if a wife cheated in the manner of Tiger/Jesse, her character assassination would be just as thorough (if not more!) by the tabloids/press/public. A MOTHER cheating with a bunch of (mostly unsavory!) men (w/o protection!) just b/c she just wanted to get laid?--A LOT! I don't think that would go over with anyone. Her image and endorsements would be gone (I think) and even a trip to good ol' sex rehab might not ever rehabilitate her career.

[SuperFemme]

I am madly in love with my honey. I swore I'd never do marriage again, yet I took the leap with hym and feel like hy is the best thing since hair clippies.

I would die a thousand deaths if suddenly everyone in our circle starting coming forward with proof of not just one affair, but multiple affairs. That horrible feeling you feel when everyone knows but you.

I'd leave hym in a hot second. We have not negotiated anything other than monogamy at this point. So yeah, I feel for Sandra Bullock. I feel for Elin Woods too, but think she should be glad Tiger kept mum about her attack on him. Violence is never okay.

[julieisafemme]

You know the thing that bums me out about all of this is that gossip is incredibly painful. Having your private life broadcast to everyone is painful. It happens to lots of people besides celebrities. You don't have to be famous for people to get a big thrill about talking about you. The past year I have been the subject of gossip. People I trusted and told things to then went out and shared my business with other people. That has affected my kid who is an innocent bystander in all of this. It has affected my partner who asked for none of this. Jews call it lashon hara or evil tongue. So whether it is a famous person or the lady at work or your neighbor it is all bad.

Unless the person is an elected official who is representing me and making decisions about my life none of it is my business. Even if they are famous. Even if they take advantage of that fame to promote their own agendas.

[Cyclopea]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QneEDASimUI"]YouTube- Sex Rehab Commercial[/ame]

[Queerasfck]

I have to say it was pretty interesting on the radio today they were discussing of all things, the book The Scarlet Letter. It was brought up back in those puritan times so long ago that the gossip and judging gave people something else to think about. I don't really think it's much different today. Scandal, cheating, all of the lies, it gives people something else to dwell on, rather than themselves or their own problems, or even still the bigger, depressing problems in the world today. I have to say sometimes when the "mighty" fall it's sort of amusing to me. Depends on the person/circumstances.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A lot of times a butch femme couple is two women, btw or two females,- one is butch and one is femme (not always of course)- so why would straight man/woman "standards" even apply.

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

[Dylan]

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

[Dylan]

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

My reading was that you said there was a double standard for women. i also was talking about the U.S. -- now as well as the past.

What you said was offensive in the extreme. Women DIE in the U.S. every year after they have been accused of infidelity. It's not OK to just not include this fact in the conversation. Why is that so often the case -- that dead and beaten women go uncounted? Why is it not appalling when we do that? Or why, when we notice that we have done it, do we not take a long pause and think about it? It's not what i expect to encounter here. The fact is that misogyny in our community is a huge problem, and this illustrates it.

You KNOW the history of women, but you choose to dole out stereotypes of what people say about men vs what we say about women on an issue that has a bloody past and present for women? You KNOW, but you just don't want to mention that side of it? Please, spare me the stereotypes. i couldn't care less about your anecdotal observations about people's reactions to celebrities. i do take note that you can't be bothered to acknowledge the brutal facts of life as a woman in this culture.

Once again, Dylan, your misogyny is showing. Feel what you feel. But this isn't the place to bring it. It's hostile as hell to bring it here.

[Dylan]

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

Oh, I don't know. Where on EARTH did I come up with that?
Because you just feed me the material Rev., I don't have to make a THING up.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

Yes butches are equated to men all the time. I don't see men or butches being held to higher standards. I see the exact opposite when it comes to men. Women are held to much higher standards and there is lots of violence against women when they have cheated or perceived to have cheated, something that can happen to men but doesn't nearly as often. Boys will be boys may be a stereotype but it is also a major way of excusing behavior.

As to butch femme communities, I think if a butch, FTM, person of masculine persuasion is cheated on they get the same sympathy and sense of outrage as when it happens to a femme. I do not see butches being held to higher standards when it comes to cheating, relationships, etc. There are of course instances of friends taking sides, etc which happens in any community.

As to celebrities, I don't much care. I didn't think you did either, but you keep bringing them up.

Oh and as to my little "tutorial" yeah most butches and femmes are women. When you keep talking about how bad men have it and keep ignoring what women have to say here and in other discussions it's pretty offensive to some of us.

Cheating is cheating no matter which gender does it.