"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[little man]

Originally Posted by always2late

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

[always2late]

Originally Posted by little man

i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

Sure

A little background first though....my dad was brought up with even stricter gender roles than my generation. However, his mom became ill when he was very young. So my dad became a dichotomy of sorts. He took on what would be considered, at that time, the "woman's" job...cooking, cleaning, caring for his younger sister, etc...

Its also of note that my dad, a longshoreman by trade, discovered that he had a talent for floral design (and he really is incredible at it...he had a side business in it for years)

So, I don't think he was speaking of the specific "jobs" assigned to men. I tend to think he was speaking of the more intangible, for lack of a better word, aspects of his idea of "masculinity". He was taught that men are chivalrous, respectful, and strong, not just physically, but in character as well. That they endure without complaining. They are the providers and the protectors. For my dad, a man that does not hold a door open for a woman, or offer her his seat, or defend her when she is threatened, is, in his view, a "lesser man". It is his belief that men do not put their own needs first, their purpose is to take care of and provide for their family and to keep them safe. However, he also believes that men do not show their feelings, or weaknesses, or flaws....that it undermines their strength to do so.

What can I say? While I don't always agree with all of my father's beliefs or ideas, I have to look at the source and realize that he is, as we all are to some extent, a product of what he was brought up to believe. We can modify and alter those beliefs somewhat...but many of them are deep-rooted.

[little man]

Originally Posted by always2late

Sure

A little background first though....my dad was brought up with even stricter gender roles than my generation. However, his mom became ill when he was very young. So my dad became a dichotomy of sorts. He took on what would be considered, at that time, the "woman's" job...cooking, cleaning, caring for his younger sister, etc...

Its also of note that my dad, a longshoreman by trade, discovered that he had a talent for floral design (and he really is incredible at it...he had a side business in it for years)

So, I don't think he was speaking of the specific "jobs" assigned to men. I tend to think he was speaking of the more intangible, for lack of a better word, aspects of his idea of "masculinity". He was taught that men are chivalrous, respectful, and strong, not just physically, but in character as well. That they endure without complaining. They are the providers and the protectors. For my dad, a man that does not hold a door open for a woman, or offer her his seat, or defend her when she is threatened, is, in his view, a "lesser man". It is his belief that men do not put their own needs first, their purpose is to take care of and provide for their family and to keep them safe. However, he also believes that men do not show their feelings, or weaknesses, or flaws....that it undermines their strength to do so.

What can I say? While I don't always agree with all of my father's beliefs or ideas, I have to look at the source and realize that he is, as we all are to some extent, a product of what he was brought up to believe. We can modify and alter those beliefs somewhat...but many of them are deep-rooted.

thank you...i had supposed it was along these lines. your dad and mine must be of about the same age.

i love the fact that he's fabulous with floral arrangements. i also find that kind of ironic, in a conversation about "traditional" male roles.

for the most part, i would agree with your dad's measure of a man. it sounds as if the emotional piece is what's problematic for him.

[always2late]

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

[little man]

Originally Posted by always2late

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

while frustrating for men "of a certain age", perhaps this shift toward sensitivity and emotion on the part of men bespeaks progress for men in their overall evolution.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by always2late

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

So do you typically date Men, or Butches?

[always2late]

I date whomever I am attracted to and who exhibits the personality and character that I find desirable in a partner.

[Soon]

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


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Thoughts?

[Apocalipstic]

A problem for me has been expecting my partners to be a certain way based on what they look like or who they say/think they are.

If they present themselves as men in a "traditional" non "sensitive" kind of way, and I act accordingly (naturally), since I am horribly lacking on the romantic (remembering your birthdays and anniversary) and cuddling/foreplay department. They are upset that I am treating them like a man, when they are not. While really I am just being myself.

I see myself as a dude emotionally and have been told that by every single person I have dated in my 32 years of dating. I try to be more emotional and romantic, I do.

So expecting a person to be a certain way even if they think themselves that they are traditionally masculine in every way, does not mean they really are.

Am I making any sense at all?