Infidelity

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

There is a big double-standard with this going on. And now, the rumors of James (the bad boy) going into rehab/treatment.... hummmm... for sex addiction? This is the new Hollywood, rich athelete answer to cheating. I believe this addiction exists, however, the rich stars will use it as an excuse for behavior and if addicted, won't really do the work necessary to recover. I watched LKL last night and some of the same old BS about men just not being able to help themselves with sex (and the other women are always the temptress) bullshit was being spewed. Actually, the whole interview was one of the most sexist pile of horse-dung I have seen in a long time. Sexist about both men and women. Equal opportunity stereotypes abound!

Women cheat, too. And I don't believe we have accurate stats on the actual numbers because of this double standard. I am also tired of men being viewed as slaves to their penis!

Why the hell don't we talk about how we make choices for ourselves in relationships and take responsibility for when we make mistakes? Also, in the context of these celebrity situations, why people think the dynamics are within any kind of norm (term used loosly) anything like what the rtest of us experience is just nuts to me. But, it sells!!!

Anyone want to talk about the meaning of character?

What's LKL?

I thought we were talking about making choices for ourselves.

And one of *my* meanings of 'character' is not basing someone's 'worth' solely on his/her looks...especially when it comes to celebrities. It chaps my ass whenever I hear comments like, "[Sandy] didn't deserve this because she's beautiful, and brilliant, and has a million things going for her. I would have treated her sooooooooooo much better."

It chaps my ass on so many levels. The main reason being the person who usually says this about celebrities has never DEALT with the celebrity. The entirety of the comment is based on public facade and (9 times outta 10) LOOKS. So, what does that mean? Does an not-so-attractive woman 'deserve' to be cheated on? And how in the hell does anyone know what it's like to live with Sandy (for example, altho the same shit was said about Eliza Hurley). I mean, seriously, maybe she's just a hideous person to deal with. Maybe a million things. But no, she's deemed attractive, so she MUST be just a complete joy to live with.

And who said anything about feeling 'pity' for men? I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Men don't usually lose their children or their lives for cheating either.

Cheating sucks EVEN if the other half is heinous to live with. That's not an excuse for infidelity, it's a reason to break up.

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=AtLastHome;77019]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

I thought we were discussing relationships... I thought what we were doing is discussing that maybe just maybe we put to much time and energy into the lives of others and not enough into our own?

I dunno I think it oogy, that so many people are like ohhhh poor lil Sandra.. I mean what do we know about her really, should it matter who it is? Would it be just as bad if it had happened to say, the woman with the 4 kids with the mole on her chin down the street?

Wait wait we do not hear about the trials and tribulations of the people in building 899 apt 455. WHY?? Cause there is no one following them, idolizing them, or thinking ooooO--- Aaaaah that Sandy Chicharoon did not deserve her husband cheating on her, leaving her with no food, 5 kids and the pets, she didn't deserve that..

No, we are to busy worrying about El Tigre Woods, Leanna Rhimes, Jesse James, what's that guys name from the kid show......

Thinkin...

Oh yes John Gosselin......

Really???

WHO CARES!!!

There is a Pope out there hiding out priests who have molested over 200 deaf boys...

Pedophilia hiding is far worse than all this other shit..

At least that is what I think...

[SuperFemme]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;77124]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I thought we were discussing relationships... I thought what we were doing is discussing that maybe just maybe we put to much time and energy into the lives of others and not enough into our own?

I dunno I think it oogy, that so many people are like ohhhh poor lil Sandra.. I mean what do we know about her really, should it matter who it is? Would it be just as bad if it had happened to say, the woman with the 4 kids with the mole on her chin down the street?

Wait wait we do not hear about the trials and tribulations of the people in building 899 apt 455. WHY?? Cause there is no one following them, idolizing them, or thinking ooooO--- Aaaaah that Sandy Chicharoon did not deserve her husband cheating on her, leaving her with no food, 5 kids and the pets, she didn't deserve that..

No, we are to busy worrying about El Tigre Woods, Leanna Rhimes, Jesse James, what's that guys name from the kid show......

Thinkin...

Oh yes John Gosselin......

Really???

WHO CARES!!!

There is a Pope out there hiding out priests who have molested over 200 deaf boys...

Pedophile hiding is far worse than all this other shit..

At least that is what I think...

There are about a hundred things that I can think of off the top of my head that are worse than cheating.

But you win with the Pope and his band of merry priests.

[Soon]

Reading People magazine online right now and this is an example of a woman cheating from years ago and the nation's reaction:

INGRID BERGMAN
While filming 1950's Stromboli, the Casablanca beauty fell for married director Roberto Rossellini, whom she left her own husband and daughter for. The affair scandalized the nation, leading Bergman to being blacklisted in Hollywood – and even denounced on the Senate floor as a "powerful influence for evil."

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.
Dylan

Double standard? What kind of double standard is that? A double standard means some rules are applied more strictly to one group than another. If that is so, then, yes, there is a double standard where infidelity is concerned. And it is women who suffer as a result of it.

Thousands of women are beaten up and killed every year because of accusations of infidelity. Some men are too. That's the double standard. i cannot believe you repeated that. i cannot believe you would say it in a public forum where most of the participants are women. How hostile do you intend to be?

Who gives a crap what people say when others have relationship issues? Most people with an average IQ wouldn't say ANY of those things you quoted, yet you use their blathering as an excuse to say men have a harder time in our culture than women do where this issue is concerned? i don't think so. Take a body count.

i am sure there are some issues in our culture where women benefit from a double standard. This is NOT ONE of them. To say so -- and to keep saying it -- is appalling. It's hostile. It's misogynistic. WTF?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What's LKL?

I thought we were talking about making choices for ourselves.

And one of *my* meanings of 'character' is not basing someone's 'worth' solely on his/her looks...especially when it comes to celebrities. It chaps my ass whenever I hear comments like, "[Sandy] didn't deserve this because she's beautiful, and brilliant, and has a million things going for her. I would have treated her sooooooooooo much better."

It chaps my ass on so many levels. The main reason being the person who usually says this about celebrities has never DEALT with the celebrity. The entirety of the comment is based on public facade and (9 times outta 10) LOOKS. So, what does that mean? Does an not-so-attractive woman 'deserve' to be cheated on? And how in the hell does anyone know what it's like to live with Sandy (for example, altho the same shit was said about Eliza Hurley). I mean, seriously, maybe she's just a hideous person to deal with. Maybe a million things. But no, she's deemed attractive, so she MUST be just a complete joy to live with.

And who said anything about feeling 'pity' for men? I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.


Dylan

Oh, Larry King Live. (LKL).. Tuesday night. Actually, it was a lousy group of interviewees. And the experts on sexual addictions were just not articulate at all. Not a very good representation of the fact that it can be an addictive and destructive situation for some people.

There was also a whole lotta stereotyping of both men and women going on! Which for me, gets in the way of looking at this in terms of addiction. This, and the latest celebrity sex rehab scenarios without people in the field that know what they are talking about.

JeepSakes, I agreed with you about the double standard... and the looks stuff as well. And, we all have different ideas of beauty, anyway. But, only people that are considered, beautiful, deserve to be treated well?? WTF is that?

I am right with you concerning personal choices.... I hate it when someone says they are lucky (re: about their relationship & partner). It isn't about luck at all, it is about taking care of yourself and choosing well. And having what it takes to be effective as a partner and knowing the art of cooperation. I know I make very conscious decisions about relationships and who I even date. Sure, I recognize that someone is a great choice, but I don't role dice in choosing to find out if someone is right for me (and themselves). And just because I might be smitten, doesn't mean I will turn away from what I know has to there in order to have a healthy relationship with someone. I make choices.

I had hoped with the Tiger Woods fiasco, that some good information would get out about sexual addictions, but, don't think it is. People don't want to deal with this. And they especially don't want to in terms of male stereotypes. They are much more able to think in terms of sex addiction with women, really... and stereotypes around sex abuse and histrionic personality variables (more stereotypes, usually).

Anything that gets in the way of forming positive relationships can have an addictive nature to it.

Just thinking that shouldn’t everyone cherish, respect, and hold their partner in high regard based upon mutuality of these tenets.

Oh, and hell yes, the Pope and the Band of Merry Men are a hell of a lot more important than this! Why can't Congress intervene with legislation in which all churches cannot be exempt from prosecution in these cases? The Catholic church is not the only perp here, either. The way in which religious organizations are protected/legally insulated from criminal (and civil) litigation in the US is an outrage.

[Kobi]

And on and on it goes lol.

Here I was the one who brought up using words carefully and I didnt when I spoke of people speaking publicly about how happy they are as a red flag for me. It is hard to explain in words, it is a feeling, it is something being said out of character, it is something you get a feel for. Saying you are happy with someone per se is not a red flag.

Rufus, I dont know if people are hard wired for monogamy or if it is cultural, economic, religious, or whatever. I know I am hard wired for monogamy.

And for cheaters heading to rehab for sexual addiction.......take away their access to viagra......I find it hard to believe these folks can carry on as they supposedly do without some artifical help.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And for cheaters heading to rehab for sexual addiction.......take away their access to viagra......I find it hard to believe these folks can carry on as they supposedly do without some artifical help.

Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

[I'mOneToo]

It's not just disruptive to the sufferer, but everyone who knows them. It pervades every pore of the relationship until it kills it eventually. Maybe not in every case, but in my case, yeah. Some people suffer from the whole triple threat you mentioned, it's sad to feel so un-cared for by the other, that they would not want to get help. But they have to want it for themselves, another person will never be important enough. Like with my own addictions, I had to want to be clean and sober for myself, not for someone else. But I've also learned, for ME, sex addiction is a huge consideration in partnering -- learned like everything else, the hard way. I want no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, and no sex addictions in my life. I want my partner to be able to be as fully in the present as possible. I offer that, and I want it in return. No more compromising my values. There are enough challenges in life without having to face daily addictions as part of the burden. Progress, not perfection -- and for me, progress starts with being free from active addictions, and my partner also. This is a separate issue (but related) from that of honesty and communication which are integral; for me it is impossible to achieve that with addictions in the way.

Originally Posted by Martina

Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by I'mOneToo

It's not just disruptive to the sufferer, but everyone who knows them. It pervades every pore of the relationship until it kills it eventually. Maybe not in every case, but in my case, yeah. Some people suffer from the whole triple threat you mentioned, it's sad to feel so un-cared for by the other, that they would not want to get help. But they have to want it for themselves, another person will never be important enough. Like with my own addictions, I had to want to be clean and sober for myself, not for someone else. But I've also learned, for ME, sex addiction is a huge consideration in partnering -- learned like everything else, the hard way. I want no drugs, no alcohol, no smoking, and no sex addictions in my life. I want my partner to be able to be as fully in the present as possible. I offer that, and I want it in return. No more compromising my values. There are enough challenges in life without having to face daily addictions as part of the burden. Progress, not perfection -- and for me, progress starts with being free from active addictions, and my partner also. This is a separate issue (but related) from that of honesty and communication which are integral; for me it is impossible to achieve that with addictions in the way.

AMEN. I wonder if these few celebrity cases are doing a disservice to those who really do suffer as sex addicts. IMO it has made the public at large make a big joke about it. Which is sad.

Progress, not perfection baby!

[I'mOneToo]

In a way they do shine a light on a pervasive problem. On the down side, it tends to cause people to make light of a serious situation. Not everyone who suffers can get an all-expenses-paid trip to "Promises" or whatever the hell celeb rehab is popular these days. Maybe instead of highlighting those on pedestals, they could offer real solutions for the average person who may need it. It's a very complicated issue that can't be treated with a golf club.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

AMEN. I wonder if these few celebrity cases are doing a disservice to those who really do suffer as sex addicts. IMO it has made the public at large make a big joke about it. Which is sad.

Progress, not perfection baby!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

So glad you bring these points up. What is disrupted and how can really differ from couple to couple, as well. The thread got all involved with the celebrity phenomenon, but, what about just us? And I bet we all have an array of personal variables around relationships/marriages. When something causes our life to spin out of control, like multi-affairs or developing an online relationship that gets us in trouible - thinking about the Michigan man that ended up killing someone via an online romance in which the woman was actually the mother using her daughters identity, it can be addictive in nature. His marriage went down the tubes during his torrid love affair with someone who was actually not who he thought. And the guy he killed (the perceived threat) had never actually met the woman, either! he spent most of his time at home on the pc and he had a family!

[SuperFemme]

Many sex addicts are not in relationships. With a real person that is.

[Nina]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Many sex addicts are not in relationships. With a real person that is.

and, many sex addicts don't feel *themselves* as 'real' people...the whole thing, imo, is that it's all sad, sad, sad and brings that same upon everyone involved...

maudlin this evening, I guess...

[Dylan]

1. Ahhhhhhhh, thanks. I don't watch The Larry.

2. UGH with the stereotyping. Yeah, I agree...speaking in terms of stereotypes would totally diminish the actual situation.

2a) on a side note, I DO believe in some differences I didn't used to believe in...but I'm still totally agreeing with what you've said here.

3. Oh, I know...I was agreeing with you too. It's so annoying.

4. I agree.

5. Good points...thanks for the perspective


Dylan

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

1. Oh, Larry King Live. (LKL).. Tuesday night. Actually, it was a lousy group of interviewees. And the experts on sexual addictions were just not articulate at all. Not a very good representation of the fact that it can be an addictive and destructive situation for some people.

2. There was also a whole lotta stereotyping of both men and women going on! Which for me, gets in the way of looking at this in terms of addiction. This, and the latest celebrity sex rehab scenarios without people in the field that know what they are talking about.

3. JeepSakes, I agreed with you about the double standard... and the looks stuff as well. And, we all have different ideas of beauty, anyway. But, only people that are considered, beautiful, deserve to be treated well?? WTF is that?

4. I am right with you concerning personal choices.... I hate it when someone says they are lucky (re: about their relationship & partner). It isn't about luck at all, it is about taking care of yourself and choosing well. And having what it takes to be effective as a partner and knowing the art of cooperation. I know I make very conscious decisions about relationships and who I even date. Sure, I recognize that someone is a great choice, but I don't role dice in choosing to find out if someone is right for me (and themselves). And just because I might be smitten, doesn't mean I will turn away from what I know has to there in order to have a healthy relationship with someone. I make choices.

5. I had hoped with the Tiger Woods fiasco, that some good information would get out about sexual addictions, but, don't think it is. People don't want to deal with this. And they especially don't want to in terms of male stereotypes. They are much more able to think in terms of sex addiction with women, really... and stereotypes around sex abuse and histrionic personality variables (more stereotypes, usually).

Anything that gets in the way of forming positive relationships can have an addictive nature to it.

Just thinking that shouldn’t everyone cherish, respect, and hold their partner in high regard based upon mutuality of these tenets.

Oh, and hell yes, the Pope and the Band of Merry Men are a hell of a lot more important than this! Why can't Congress intervene with legislation in which all churches cannot be exempt from prosecution in these cases? The Catholic church is not the only perp here, either. The way in which religious organizations are protected/legally insulated from criminal (and civil) litigation in the US is an outrage.