only another butch would understand

[Toughy]

<snip> I believe that has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners. <snip>

really???????????

sorry.......ain't buying or drinking that koolaid.........

[Medusa]

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

THIS is a great post Medusa. I had been guilty of this myself, until I realized I was doing it.

[Medusa]

(and I just wanted to clarify that I just re-read my post and wanted to say that when I write something like "calling my partner 'a "he"' that I am NOT intending to "other" anyone who identifies as "he"...just trying to illustrate a compartmentalization from my own perspective)

with respect,
a

[BullDog]

Medusa, your post is very powerful and speaks very clearly to how all of this has played out over the years. Thank you so much for your post.

What I said yesterday was that having male identified people in a primarily female queer space introduces power dynamics, hierarchies, privileges, etc that would not be there- in the same way- if male identified people were not there, just as white people being in a group of people is different than if it was a community that was made up of all people of color. Does that mean I think that male identified people shouldn't be here? No, it does not. Does it mean I think male identified people are to blame entirely for the hierarchies, the erasure, the misogyny that has taken place. No, I do not. We have all played a role in it.

However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by BullDog

However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

It's not my fault that I'm white, but I certainly have a responsibility to be aware of how my presence as a white person impacts the people around me.

I am butch. Masculine is much more valued than feminine- both in society and in butch femme circles. I didn't ask it to be that way, but I still feel it's my responsibility to be aware of that, to speak up, and to be a strong ally to femmes. Not only because I love femmes but also because of this inequity that exists. I have an extra responsibility because of it. I don't go around crying it's not my fault. I have done my best over the years and will continue to do so.

It mystifies me that male identified people are saying they don't have a responsibility to be aware of their surroundings and how being male identified can impact others, particularly when they are in a community of primarily female people. I am absolutely mystified. Taking personal responsibility and being aware of how your presence and participation in a community may impact others- it certainly appears to be a dying and lost art.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Between "her and me" are the keywords here, I hope you can differentiate that and not "feel like you have to walk a tight rope around female identified butches". Painting ALL of a group with the words of one person just doesn't work for me, but pretty much gives the in to respond to that

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine- how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

I'm just going to briefly address this equating or switching out of the words "male" with masculine and "female" with feminine mid thought. Male does not mean more masculine and doesn't in any way is a guarantee of a more masculine essence/energy/presentation etc. than a female ID may carry (or vice versa for that matter the maleID that may carry feminine energy). It's all pretty relative... but we all have a responsibility to not perpetuate these type of concrete stereotyping of different types of butch IDs.

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

I know you asked to keep this between her and you, but when you make generalizations about various IDs you pretty much invite all comers. I'm not really interested in debate on this but really more attempting to prevent leaving these types things out there unchallenged as if they have validity.



Metro

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

What I said yesterday was that having male identified people in a primarily female queer space introduces power dynamics, hierarchies, privileges, etc that would not be there- in the same way- if male identified people were not there, just as white people being in a group of people is different than if it was a community that was made up of all people of color. Does that mean I think that male identified people shouldn't be here? No, it does not. Does it mean I think male identified people are to blame entirely for the hierarchies, the erasure, the misogyny that has taken place. No, I do not. We have all played a role in it.

However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.

Masculinity is valued over femininity. That means YOU too need to check your shit. This is something you constantly put on male ID'd butches and transmen. Also, this happens to femmes ALL the time from BUTCHES...PERIOD.

And here's the other thing. I was invited to this site (as many many people were)...not in SPITE of who I am, but BECAUSE of who I am. This site is NOT (as has been reiterated by the Admin time and time again) female space or lesbian space. This was made VERY clear to me before I signed up. I'm sorry if that ruins your picture perfect, "butches are women" motto, but that's the way it is...Admin's said it NUMEROUS times.

WOMEN do not OWN butch femme...PERIOD. If you don't like male ID'd butches, or if you don't like FTMs, don't talk to them. Say whatever you like in your private 'females and female pronouns only' clubhouse, but your post is offensive and exclusionary on what was presented to me as a very QUEER INclusionary space. If this space is NOT supposed to be inclusionary of the entirety of the queer community, then I will freely leave and take my business elsewhere, because I've HAD it with this type of transphobia...especially coming from gender variant folks.

It's been presented to me that this is a QUEER website meant for ALL variations thereof.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Masculinity is valued over femininity. That means YOU too need to check your shit. This is something you constantly put on male ID'd butches and transmen. Also, this happens to femmes ALL the time from BUTCHES...PERIOD.

And here's the other thing. I was invited to this site (as many many people were)...not in SPITE of who I am, but BECAUSE of who I am. This site is NOT (as has been reiterated by the Admin time and time again) female space or lesbian space. This was made VERY clear to me before I signed up. I'm sorry if that ruins your picture perfect, "butches are women" motto, but that's the way it is...Admin's said it NUMEROUS times.

WOMEN do not OWN butch femme...PERIOD. If you don't like male ID'd butches, or if you don't like FTMs, don't talk to them. Say whatever you like in your private 'females and female pronouns only' clubhouse, but your post is offensive and exclusionary on what was presented to me as a very QUEER INclusionary space. If this space is NOT supposed to be inclusionary of the entirety of the queer community, then I will freely leave and take my business elsewhere, because I've HAD it with this type of transphobia...especially coming from gender variant folks.

It's been presented to me that this is a QUEER website meant for ALL variations thereof.


Dylan

Dylan stop with your hyperbole and exaggerations already. It was a tired act long ago. I have never said anything about all women or all female space.

I do check my SHIT all the time as a masculine identified person. I have also discussed this in my posts in this thread.

Just stop already.

[Just_G]

Well, here we go. I hate all this kind of interaction...it gets so negative and just feels gross to me. THIS kind of interaction is one of the several reasons I left the other site and all of that argumentive space.
THIS is why I don't participate in these kinds of threads. I am feeling all pissy and wanting to jump on people about things they say.

Peace out kids.....I am going to go let people know what I am wearing today or if I own something, or maybe even write a Dear * letter to make my friends laugh or smile.

This is ridiculous.

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

I was going to stay out of this thread since the conversation was moving a long but I do feel the need to add my few cents as a Butch person.

Id like to see the great divide brought together, Id like to see the healing begin. I know we can share space in this queer community as long as we honor and respect each other.

I have a lot of dear friends that are Male Identified and FTM and I do feel a deep sense of brotherhood with, while honoring my own Female Identity and that of many Female Identified friends.

We all have struggles to be seen, we all already know it, one persons visibility doesn't have to come at the expense of others.

Im not saying that in reference to anyone here, I'm just saying what Im feeling.

The first person ever Banned from this website is a known Troll that spews Transphobic hatred all over the internet.
We wont provide medium for hatred on any level.

I dont want anyone shaking a finger in my face telling me what I need to work on as a adult.
So lets talk to each other rather than at each other and not vilify any group of people.

Off to smoke my pipe on the front porch and watch the squirrels hide their nuts.

Sometimes yer just hawt.

Daywalker

Smokin mah pipe right along with ya.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.

I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.

I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.

in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"

[Toughy]

D U S A ! ! !

I love you baby...........thank you so much for speaking up....that was hard to do and I, for one, really appreciate that you did..........the role of femmes in the male pronoun default has always been on my mind.....

----------

e

I will have to come back to you. I am recovering from pneumonia and still have huge amounts of drugs in my system and my brain can hardly put a paragraph together....

oh yeah.....I think I disagree with you..........even after you further explained....

and thank you for the apology.....

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip>
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

When I first read this post, I wanted to rep you, BullDog, for drawing attention to the importance for all masculine peoples (I'm sticking with the general here) to examine masculinity and how we wear/utilize it. I have spent a number of years consciously examining my masculinity in an effort to better understand the creature that I am, and so that I might more fluidly navigate a world that does not understand me without feeling perpetually ill at ease and misunderstood.

Then I got to this last paragraph. To put it bluntly, I felt a door closing. The door not solely to this thread, but to this site. Now, I know you weren't addressing me in particular and that I should know better than to take your statements personally. But I did. Your statement felt exclusionary. Your statement said, “In this female queer space, you are a tolerated outsider.” (There is a fundamental fallacy in the term “female queer space” in that this is not identified as “female queer space,” but I think that’s already been addressed.) What it feels like is that we (male identified) should have to justify our presence here. I resent feeling like I need to reveal parts of my history in order to be validated; like I should pull down my pants and show you my bits so we can see how “alike” we all are. I struggle constantly with trying to reconcile my life – my history, accomplishments, journies – with where I am today. I believed this was one place – and this is relevant to the thread title – where butches would understand; where I could be accepted as just butch.

What a lot of this feels like to me - this unwarranted saddling of male-id’ed butches with male privilege – is to place us in the position of oppressor.

Really?

Not so much. Because while I don’t disagree that there are circumstances in which female identified butches might feel invisible or have to fight to be seen as who they are, maybe we need to examine who is responsible for that, because, to quote Johnny Cash, it ain’t me, babe.

See, I just see butch. I don’t subscribe to hierarchal thinking, it’s rubbish, and anyone who does subscribe to it needs some serious educating. Not lines drawn, not us/them speak, not victim/oppressor posturing.

Last night, I wanted to ask to whom you addressed the following, “You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are.” Personally, I’m hoping you are fair minded enough to recognize that is a statement that applies equally to butches of all flavors, it is hardly unique to male-id’ed butches.

And then I thought, well, here goes another "butch (inclusive) thread turning into a gender identity war." That hadn't happened here yet. Now, I'm not blaming you for that simply because you were the first person to feel it necessary to draw some sort of line distinguishing "types" of butch. I suppose those of us who take issue with your post could simply have remained silent; just taken our invisibility and sat there quietly with it.

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip> Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities.

This feels incredibly dismissive to me:

"It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large..."

It's dismissive of male-identified/trans butches who have not one whiff of male privilege out in the world at large, and worse, it's dismissive of the shared experience of ALL butches. This thread, which got off to a rocky start, and may have been ill-conceived to begin with, was about what we relate to among ourselves - as butches. No modifiers necessary.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

Medusa thank you, I truly appreciate what you've expressed in your post... and what you obviously heard... again much appreciation.

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.

I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.

I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.

in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"

Beau, thanks I totally hear you and get this. I had a whole post in response/concurrence but really you said it quite well already.

I don't know how deep I'll be in these particular conversations, I'm kind of getting into "just being" these days w/o having to explain it at every turn... and a bit tired too. That said I do still feel invested in these particular issues, so we'll see.

Peace,
Metro

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.

Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.

Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.

I think I do understand what you're talking about.

I think it's unfortunate that you don't want to take ownership for the power of what you said, perhaps because you can't understand that your statements were as exclusionary as those of which you accuse others? I won't presume to understand your reasons.

You have, however, again been dismissive.

This method of non-discourse and discounting another's ability to understand is a further means by which to exclude.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

My femme voice may also be intrusive but I feel a need to be heard here.

I love that part of your post, there IS work to be done. We are the same folks that have participated in this same subject before. My eyes gaze over when I see shots being taken at someone for basically pointing out the obvious regarding this. It's not always about being what we perceive as right.


Grace, respect and honor, three little very powerful words.

I would like to say that I AM a butch ally. I want to learn, I want to hear the struggles of what has brought the butches of my community to where they are today. I honor their journey.

I feel an undertone of anger and that silences me. I want to ask questions and HEAR people because I do care, but I struggle to get past the atmospheric anger. We should and could all be proud of who we are without anyone taking offense to that. I should not feel a need to defend who I am because someone else posts about who they are. We are all equally important. I hope this conversation continues in a good light so I can learn more..

Great things come from critical thoughts. Bad things happen when those thoughts are disrespected.

I love my butch with all my heart and personally would not care how he chooses to ID, that is his preference. It's what in the heart that counts. I do however care a great deal about his journey, every step of it. I am so proud of who he is today and respect every step he took to get here. None of those steps should be dismissed, ever.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.

Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.

I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.

I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.