Butch visibility

[femm_cb]

Originally Posted by SoSousMe

I am very hard to miss in a social situation, until people see My chest, I have not had top surgery yet, so sometimes that's the only clue given off that I am not bio male. And it's saved My butt more than once in public restrooms. It's extremely difficult to travel this earth and not be stared at, talked about, looked at with disdain.

I have been threatened, chased, and damn near accosted in a bathroom by a group of women at a wedding in Atlanta. I was chased out of a small town by a small group of teenage boys, the only reason I did not stand My ground, as was My usual reaction, was because I had My 6 year old son with Me. The clerk at the counter and I made eye contact as she picked up the phone to call the local police, she seemed more scared than I. My son was terrified. I had done nothing more than stand in line with My boy waiting to pay for a pizza.

I have been in more bar brawls than I care to admit, due to rowdy college boys believing I was unaware that I was "some kinda fuckin dyke". I never backed down, until that day with My son. Here in My hometown, I was the first out "lesbian", and over the years, this town has become quite the little queer friendly place to live. But back then it was not nearly as accepting. It is when I go out of town where I run into trouble now.

My wifey does not understand why I am always watching the crowd, why, if I see a group of "questionable" men approaching us, I may take My hand from hers. She says it's My being ashamed, I cannot make her understand, it's self preservation at times. I am 47 years old now, and I am not nearly as quick to jump into a fight with a 20 frat boy as I used to be.

You can be damn sure, no matter where we are, I am constantly scanning the crowd, waiting for a fist to fly. This is Texas, in most towns, it's still frowned upon, and trust Me, I've been kicked enough times, punched enough times, and chased enough times to know when to run. And I won't put My girl through that, if she's still innocent to the thought of anti-gay, homophobic hate filled attacks, I will do what I can to keep it that way.

My wife (who is butch) is the same way. Certain crowds, she will not hold my hand at all. A few of our straight couple friends don't truly get it when we decline to go to the local straight bars. She's been hit a few times and oh she is a scrapper too. I don't take it personal. I understand.

I am more quick with my tongue when it comes to her. We were at a cascino food court line when the couple behind us asked if my wife was a guy? I put my arm around my wife, turned around and said "She's more a man then your husband is" Said wife wasn't too happy. They quickly left the foodcourt line. HA! My wife just shook her head at me.

[BullDog]

Despite all the homophobia and misogyny one can encounter as a butch, I am very happy to be seen as a dyke. Unfortunately, it is based on stereotypes- because femmes and less masculine appearing lesbians or others who don't fit the "stereotype" are just as lesbian/gay/queer as I am. I do not fall under the "male gaze," I do not have to repeatedly come out, my "queerness" is not suspect- all things that femmes have to deal with. For the most part I am treated fine. The problem is homophobia can spring up at any time, but I just deal as needed- mostly by not responding to it. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wouldn't trade being a Butch for anything.

[Ascot]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Despite all the homophobia and misogyny one can encounter as a butch, I am very happy to be seen as a dyke. Unfortunately, it is based on stereotypes- because femmes and less masculine appearing lesbians or others who don't fit the "stereotype" are just as lesbian/gay/queer as I am. I do not fall under the "male gaze," I do not have to repeatedly come out, my "queerness" is not suspect- all things that femmes have to deal with. For the most part I am treated fine. The problem is homophobia can spring up at any time, but I just deal as needed- mostly by not responding to it. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wouldn't trade being a Butch for anything.

Amen. I wouldn't trade it either. To be butch, to be the counterpart to the breathtaking panoply of gloriousness that is everything femme...no, I wouldn't trade it for anything at all.

Damn, now I'm thinking about all the things I so love about femmes, every kind of femme, each unique unto herself. I could go on for days and never feel as though I'd expressed enough appreciation, fondness, affection and admiration. The lust thing, that would definitely take eons, too.

Vive la difference!

[BullDog]

Yes, I agree Ascot. I am happy to be who I am and much better equipped to face the type of challenges butches face than the one femmes do, but every femme I have ever known is comfortable in her own skin and very happy to be femme. So vive la difference.

[chris1life]

Some times while walking around this "good ole boy" state is a test to my sanity ha. I go to the men's department to shop And some times ignored by staff or asked if they can help me find my husband something. Here I am standing there with my men's dress pants shirt and tie. I usually in my deep voice tell them as politely as I can "I am the the damn husband" I don't really call myself that in my world but it seems that's all these back woods Bible thumpers understand. (No I have no problem with religion unless its used the way it is here) I suppose Maybe its the shoulder length blonde hair. Last night my wife and I went out to eat and it was one of the packing nights for me so the swagger and the butch vibes were pulsing ha. And while we are sitting at the bar waiting for our table we actually had men come over to her and try to flirt. All while she is holding my hand in her lap. I wanted to beat on my chest and start kicking some ass. Point is when people aren't acting like if I get close I may give them my butch germs they are trying to pretend I'm not here. Like if they don't make eye contact I'll go away. I do have a wonderful wife the leaned over and gave me a nice long kiss that left no doubts about what I was to her. Sorry for the rant. With the butch population being almost nonexistent in my town it feels good to say what's on my mind.

[Ascot]

Originally Posted by chris1life

Some times while walking around this "good ole boy" state is a test to my sanity ha. I go to the men's department to shop And some times ignored by staff or asked if they can help me find my husband something. Here I am standing there with my men's dress pants shirt and tie. I usually in my deep voice tell them as politely as I can "I am the the damn husband" I don't really call myself that in my world but it seems that's all these back woods Bible thumpers understand. (No I have no problem with religion unless its used the way it is here) I suppose Maybe its the shoulder length blonde hair. Last night my wife and I went out to eat and it was one of the packing nights for me so the swagger and the butch vibes were pulsing ha. And while we are sitting at the bar waiting for our table we actually had men come over to her and try to flirt. All while she is holding my hand in her lap. I wanted to beat on my chest and start kicking some ass. Point is when people aren't acting like if I get close I may give them my butch germs they are trying to pretend I'm not here. Like if they don't make eye contact I'll go away. I do have a wonderful wife the leaned over and gave me a nice long kiss that left no doubts about what I was to her. Sorry for the rant. With the butch population being almost nonexistent in my town it feels good to say what's on my mind.

No apology necessary. I'm glad you feel you can speak your mind here. Welcome to the Planet.

[NerdieGirl]

I, thus far, have only dated butch or FTM folks. I always worry about safety when it comes to my partners, especially in the bathroom. One of my ex's had so many bad experiences that she refused to use a public bathroom. My heart broke over this. Something I easily take for granted was something that caused paralyzing fear in her. I would offer to go with her, but even then she still struggled. I often complain about being an "invisible femme", but often forget to count the times that I have hidden behind that invisiblilty.

[Ascot]

Originally Posted by femm_cb

My wife (who is butch) is the same way. Certain crowds, she will not hold my hand at all. A few of our straight couple friends don't truly get it when we decline to go to the local straight bars. She's been hit a few times and oh she is a scrapper too. I don't take it personal. I understand.

I am more quick with my tongue when it comes to her. We were at a cascino food court line when the couple behind us asked if my wife was a guy? I put my arm around my wife, turned around and said "She's more a man then your husband is" Said wife wasn't too happy. They quickly left the foodcourt line. HA! My wife just shook her head at me.

I get it. It can be a tough call sometimes, the should we/shouldn't we thing. My approach is to be who I am, wherever I am, and if that means wanting to hold my girlfriend's hand then that's what I'm going to do. I am not responsible for others' reactions, but I am prepared to deal with them should they be inappropriate. I think that I've finally learned that I don't have to be so antagonistic. I confess I used to be quite invested in being a fire brand but eventually realized that that behavior, while it might have been fun in the moment, ultimately didn't serve me or anyone else well. It's really easy for me to go to that place, to make a crack, get defensive. I can do that in my sleep. I take it as indicative of my own growth that that is rarely my first inclination anymore. And, if it is, I'm pretty much able to override it at least to the extent that it doesn't manifest outwardly. These days I actually endeavor to engage people in civil exchanges in such a way that might help them realize, in spite of the overt differences, we also have some similarities. Common ground, whatever it is, "Oh, hey, look, we're at the same concert" or, "Yeah, wow, I know! Can you believe someone would actually be brave enough to paint their house that color?" is a great unifier. It's pretty cool when someone comes around. I feel triumphant, maybe even a little tingly. We part, potential animosity possibly dispelled or at least diluted, perhaps each a bit better for the experience. I'm sure to some this will sound like so much fairy tale bullshit. Blah, blah, Ascot, easy for you to say. You know what? It's not easy to say. That shit takes effort. It requires wise choices be made. Yes, it sucks that we have to make them but it is all part of this life we're in.

[TruTexan]

Bumping because it's worth reading again!

PS. I don't care what people say or think about how I dress, or appear to them. It's my life and I don't have any regrets nor do I have any give a fucks about walking into a woman's restroom and being stared at for it. I just walk in, head held high, go into the stall, do my business, then wash my hands and dry them and leave..PERIOD.
I can wear a dress and heels and still look butch no doubt, there's no mistaking me for a femme at all.

Have a great day being butch or femme or however you ID.

[Ascot]

I went to church today for the first time in decades. I was invited by a friend whose fiancé was singing in the choir, and since it was Unitarian service I figured the likelihood of my bursting into flames was fairly slim. If I may say so, I wore a pretty great tie. It felt good to get spiffed up and be comfortable enough in my own skin to have fun with it. There's been a lot of talk lately about man spreading;guys sitting with their legs fairly wide apart, taking up more than their necessary share of space. I confess that I was probably a bit guilty of doing the butch version of that today.😏

[Ascot]

In the last couple of weeks I've been told by three people that they had no idea I was gay. I don't even know what I think about that. Evidently I've been walking around with the erroneous assumption that I read like a big ol' homo to everybody. To be clear, two are passing acquaintances, and the other was a complete stranger. The last one, the stranger, actually I guess it was four people total because there were two women together that I've lumped into the stranger category. I met them when I was geocaching on Saturday, an older gal and a woman I'm thinking was her mother. I told them a little bit about what I was doing, and they seemed to find the whole idea very appealing. They even helped me look for the cache. A couple minutes into the conversation I said, "By the way, I'm Lise." The younger of the two women told me her name, and then gestured to the older woman and said,"And she's Gay." I'm sure you can see where this is going. I just couldn't help myself. I say,"Hey, me too!" Nothing. It seemed pretty clear that even though I declared it, these women just didn't see it. I think it didn't even remotely occur to them. I do realize that it could be a generational thing. Or, I suppose it is possible that they got it, and so didn't care that they didn't even react. Hmm...

I'm usually recognized by other queer folks, and that is a lovely thing. I think my investment in wanting to be seen as gay by nonqueer people has to do with putting out the message that we are everywhere and that's cool. I'm certainly not looking to have that be my sole or even a major identifier, but I still like there to be an awareness of it. Do you guys care if people know?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

I'm certainly not looking to have that be my sole or even a major identifier, but I still like there to be an awareness of it. Do you guys care if people know?

I don't even know what it would be like for people not to "know". I'm not sure what exactly they do know though. I look, talk, walk and act in ways that are identifiable to most people as masculine so when the world looks at me, especially just in passing, they see male. I don't actively choose it; it just is. Of course there is enough woman in there to make a longer look or an interaction a tad confusing. Some people do a double take of sorts. Many correct themselves and use female qualifiers. Do they know? I imagine they do. But I'm not sure exactly what they believe they know. It's seems to be more about how I look than who I love.

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

[Ascot]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

I think you make an excellent point. I might be wrong about this, but I tend to think that masculinely presenting women still have it easier than femininely presenting men.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

I might be wrong about this, but I tend to think that masculinely presenting women still have it easier than femininely presenting men.

It is certainly true that in a patriarchy masculinity is revered hence well guarded, especially along the borders where slippage can occur. Toward that end, gender in general is heavily policed in order to ensure a presentation that fits within society's definition of male and female. There appears to be more flexibility within female to explore gender as long as the exploration remains confined to acceptable areas and the explorer looks feminine. Certainly in fashion we see this.

I am inclined to believe this has more to do with the hatred of the feminine and the adoration of the masculine than any purposeful willingness to overlook masculinity in a female package. The tendency to punish male homosexuality, hell the separation of homosexual behavior into male and female supports this theory. In certain areas of the world female homosexuality isn't even recognized so their is no law against it. This has nothing to do with a love or a reverence for things female. It is misogyny at its most complex and bizarre.

This would explain why femininity in a man is not tolerated to any degree whereas woman are not required to adhere to such a complicated set of rules. The illusion is that women have more freedom to express themselves within their gender than men. The reality is that masculinity is actively and relentlessly guarded and defended. So a female gender presentation is not as restricted simply because it is not so valued. As children, girls have more leeway to drift slightly from the adult version of their gender than boys. This may be understood by examining the expectations of men and women in a patriarchy. It is tolerated if a girl and then a woman is willful and headstrong (seen as masculine traits) because she will be brought to heel by a man. Hopefully she will then come to understand her place, metaphorically speaking, as barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. How can a man be expected to fulfill his duty as the master of his universe if he is allowed to indulge in behaviors traditionally seen as feminine? This model is of course not adhered to by all people, it is however the ideal on which a patriarchy is built and the fallout of centuries of this kind of belief system is deeply ingrained in our psyche. We are fed this with our pablum as infants and dutifully even cheerfully feed it to our own offspring. It is probably the thing I can think of that comes as close as I can imagine to the idea of original sin. We must unlearn this shit if we expect anything to change.

I'm not sure that the hatred for feminine masculinity is deeper and more vicious than the hatred for masculine femininity. It is certainly true that society is able to joke about feminine masculinity. We can witness this in the plethora of media depictions featuring the stereo type of the amusing queen with the heart of gold. The bull dyke hasn't found her way into the hearts of television or movie goers in quite the same way. I think society does not find masculine femininity very funny at all. Whatever that means...

But I don't think it's easy for anyone who cannot pass as clearly one gender or the other. Not that passing as a different gender is an easy road. It's just a different hard road is all.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

Spot on. It has been interesting to me that when this has come up in conversation with cisgender, heterosexual women (friends), they are always surprised to hear me say this. I have to go through it with them for a bit before they say, "oh, yeah....you're right" with a light bulb going on for them.