The Gendering of the Young

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Nat

The gendering of children - even newborn (well even prenatal) babies - is so common and expected. How do you feel about it? Do you participate in it? Do you work to counteract it?

Hello, lovely. Great thread, as per usual.

When I knew I was pregnant, I picked a name that I knew I would use for a child no matter the sex. It's a word that has meaning and is used in daily language. I'd not heard this word used for a name before. But sure enough, my family members made certain to tell me that they were glad that my child had been born a girl, because what child could be a boy and be called this (very non-gender-specific) name? They were already gendering a word. (I've since learned of a child my daughter's age who shares her name and is a boy.)

I'd also decided that her clothes and toys would be as non-gender-specific as possible. That was a battle that I would have difficulty fighting. Although I stayed home with her for the first year, and she was sent to a very liberal and intentionally diverse nursery and primary school (socio-economic/religious/same-sex parents, etc.), and although I did not expose her to TV or other mainstream media for many years, what I think of as Pink Fairy Barbie Princess Ideology had gotten in. She wanted to be one. She WAS one.

She had the innate ability to create feathered dresses out of paper crafts. Wands out of sticks and glitter. The child was going to be Cinderella goddammit and she did not want to play with the trucks and tools I also supplied her. No way, man. Not happenin'.

I allowed her to be her own someone.

I can't know, and I think none of us can, how much socialization and conditioning work to manufacture and engineer what we think of as the gender norm, and how much of what I consider feminine or masculine arises from the human form naturally, as a matter of course and purpose and biological development. I simply cannot know the degrees. But I do know that if I hadn't finally broken down and bought that kid a Barbie (against my political preference) she would have never forgiven me.

I did NOT cave to the Bratz doll though. No way, man. No fuckin' way.

[julieisafemme]

My child finally did get a Bratz doll from her father. She played with it maybe one or two times and was over it.

My daughter liked boy things when she was little. Her first big girl panties were boys briefs with Thomas the Tank Engine on them. That is what she wanted. Now she likes sparkly pink stuff. I like girl stuff. Is it beacuse I was socialized that way? Maybe. Maybe not. You are exactly right in that it is hard to know what makes up gender.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hello, lovely. Great thread, as per usual.

When I knew I was pregnant, I picked a name that I knew I would use for a child no matter the sex. It's a word that has meaning and is used in daily language. I'd not heard this word used for a name before. But sure enough, my family members made certain to tell me that they were glad that my child had been born a girl, because what child could be a boy and be called this (very non-gender-specific) name? They were already gendering a word. (I've since learned of a child my daughter's age who shares her name and is a boy.)

I'd also decided that her clothes and toys would be as non-gender-specific as possible. That was a battle that I would have difficulty fighting. Although I stayed home with her for the first year, and she was sent to a very liberal and intentionally diverse nursery and primary school (socio-economic/religious/same-sex parents, etc.), and although I did not expose her to TV or other mainstream media for many years, what I think of as Pink Fairy Barbie Princess Ideology had gotten in. She wanted to be one. She WAS one.

She had the innate ability to create feathered dresses out of paper crafts. Wands out of sticks and glitter. The child was going to be Cinderella goddammit and she did not want to play with the trucks and tools I also supplied her. No way, man. Not happenin'.

I allowed her to be her own someone.

I can't know, and I think none of us can, how much socialization and conditioning work to manufacture and engineer what we think of as the gender norm, and how much of what I consider feminine or masculine arises from the human form naturally, as a matter of course and purpose and biological development. I simply cannot know the degrees. But I do know that if I hadn't finally broken down and bought that kid a Barbie (against my political preference) she would have never forgiven me.

I did NOT cave to the Bratz doll though. No way, man. No fuckin' way.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

My child finally did get a Bratz doll from her father. She played with it maybe one or two times and was over it.

My daughter liked boy things when she was little. Her first big girl panties were boys briefs with Thomas the Tank Engine on them. That is what she wanted. Now she likes sparkly pink stuff. I like girl stuff. Is it beacuse I was socialized that way? Maybe. Maybe not. You are exactly right in that it is hard to know what makes up gender.

Ha! I love her undies! Today, mine is thirteen and wears boxer briefs on occasion. I don't think it's a masculine gesture however. (I think she thinks it's sexy. Kill me.)

P.S. I told my wee one she could have Bratz when they started making an action figure (read: doll) for boys called Jerkz or Idiotz, but not a minute before.

[Gemme]

If I have a child, I'm not going to specifically aim for a gender neutral name, although it may very well happen, but it would not be a primary goal of mine. If I had a child and they felt their name did not fit them, and calling them by a nickname wasn't helping, and it was more than the usual "I hate my name" crap that most kids go through, then I'd help my child look into legally changing their name at an appropriate time (some time after bullies on the playground but before college apps when out).

As for toys and stereotyping sports or careers available to my child based on gender, I'm not having it. If I had a girl that loved Tonka trucks as much as Barbie, then she'll get both. If I had a son that really wanted to dance ballet or be a cheerleader then, by George, I'll do whatever I could to help him reach that goal.

Any child of mine will know two things, even if they forget anything else I will have taught them, they will know:

1. They are LOVED. Every day they will hear this, see this, feel this.
2. The only person(s) that can stop them from reaching their dreams and goals is their own self.

[BornBronson]

I always knew that i was loved by both my parents,but they were raised old school.My father is 81 this month and he alway told me that i could never be like him,which confused me because i'm just like him in many ways.But I suspect he was talking about me physically.My parents didn't care much that I was a tomboy,although i do remember once or twice my mother putting a dress on me,come to think of it it was probably only once,the other time must of been a bad nightmare.I played like a little boy(whatever that means) even though I knew that I was not one.I had two brothers that taught me the ways of being a guy,not that they were both experts themselves.The males in my family are sexist,you know the types,they believe men should look like men,women should look like women.Stuff like that only= insecurity in my book.But at a very young age I knew who I was and I never faught it,I just faught others who insisted that I look more 'womanly'.I was not like any 'normal looking girls' in this family/society,and I took pride in that.Yet still today I fight for who I am,I won't change for anyone,that includes my politics/beliefs/ect.Being a butch woman is a challenge in this world,but I like it.

[Nat]

My mom kinda dressed me butch. She's not super-girly and she didn't inflict supergirly things on me. When she was a little girl, she wanted to be an architect or an archeologist. She was interested in castles - how they were constructed and why. She built little houses for her dolls and then she was done playing with them.

I had a fascination with the barbie stuff. I loved my barbies - loved playing barbies with other girls. I also loved my troll dolls - they were great to play with. I think it was good to have flat-chested, pot-bellied, short, squat, wild-haired, by-no-means-pretty dolls to play with. I made them clothes, I took them outside with me and made homes out of twigs and leaves. I gave them whimsical names. I guess the trolls are what taught me that if you love something or someone enough, you find them beautiful.

I remember when I got to go next door and play with the neighbor boy. He had neat toys. They did things. Transformers, cars, the castle grayskull, games like mousetrap. I remember realizing that there was a difference there and that I didn't know how I ended up with only girl toys. I don't think it was my mom's choice though as much as it was the choice of gift-givers and hand-me-downers. My mom couldn't afford to buy me much.

I have always thought I would name my child a gender-neutral name, though the one I always wanted to name my kid has gotten very popular of late. I think that whatever the deconstructionalists would like to believe about gender, I think people are born with a certain sense of who they are. It may be influenced quite a lot from the external environment, but I think kids know what grates on them gender-wise as much as they know whether or not they like broccolli.

When I was a little kid - ever since I watched the movie Splash, I suppose - I mostly wanted to be a mermaid. To be wild, to have impossibly long hair, to breath under water, to live in the ocean and be magical. I may still want that. That bit of me that's a boy - I think he wants it too.

I have participated in the gendering of the young - at least so far as I've bought girl stuff for baby showers for girls. I don't think I'd do that now though. Kids are so unexpected in their preferences sometimes - it's neat to see without interfering too much. My mom had this whole peter rabbit thing going on with my babyhood - she really did try to avoid gendering me. It was the 70s and all. I still am surprised she doesn't consider herself to be a feminist.

[Medusa]

I saw this thread and was reminded of growing up and being larger than my other brothers and sisters and how that translated to my Mom and step-parents as "She's bigger, she can do "boys" work".

One distinct memory I have is that my Step-Dad owned a used car lot and body shop and he would make me come down to his shop every Saturday morning when I was 8 or 9 and pick up tools, move car parts, stack boxes, etc. He would also make me stack concrete blocks, clean out the horse pens, and bale hay.

I once asked my Mom why I had to help in the garage and work in the barn when my sister didnt have to. Her answer was, "Because your bigger and she's more frilly."

More "frilly" meant "she was a waif and I was a chubster".

Later, this translated into me being seen as "a tomboy", where my sister was a "princess", even though I was asking for the same red Reeboks and miniskirts (It was the 80s!)

Anyone else experience anything like this with size and gender conformity as a child? I know some of us have talked about being adults who are fat and how we are often seen as less feminine because of our size by the outside world.

Great discussion Nat!

[Soon]

Campbell Co. girl asked to leave school because of boyish appearance



Campbell Co. girl asked to stop attending school because of her "boyish" looks

LYNCHBURG, Va. -
You won't have any problem getting Sunnie Kahle to open up about her hobbies.


The energetic eight-year-old will proudly show you her collection of coins, hunting knives, and autographed baseballs.

"It's fun," she explained, when asked why she enjoys collecting those items.

Kahle likes teddy bears and colorful bracelets, but for the most part she's interested in things that might be considered "boy hobbies."

"Sunnie realizes she's a female, but she wants to do boy things," said Doris Thompson, Kahle's great-grandmother and legal guardian. "She wants to play rough and tough."

Thompson has raised Kahle since she was an infant. When she turned five, Thompson said she asked for a short hair cut.

"She had hair down to her waist and she wanted to give it to a child with cancer," said Thompson. "After we cut her hair she started wanting to wear jeans and a t-shirt. She didn't want to wear her frilly dresses anymore."

Her appearance started leading to awkward questions at school.

Kahle said her classmates would occasionally ask if she was a boy or a girl, but she said the question did not hurt her feelings.

The issue caught the attention of administrators at Timberlake Christian School, where Kahle was a student.

Elementary principal Becky Bowman sent home a letter last month, reminding Thompson of the school's religious affiliation and it's right to refuse students who contradict a "biblical lifestyle."

"We believe that unless Sunnie and her family clearly understand that God has made her female and her dress and behavior need to follow suit with her God-ordained identity, that TCS is not the best place for her future education," Bowman wrote in the letter, which was given to WDBJ7 by Thompson.

Thompson said she was offended by the letter's language and its references to biblical passages about sexual immorality.

"To claim that we are condoning sexual immorality in our home is nonsense," Thompson said. "We are Christians. We understand the Bible. Sunnie knows it very well. She has accepted Christ."

Thompson says Kahle is simply a tomboy, and that she's too young to understand sexual orientation or gender issues.

"If my child grows up to be homosexual or transgendered, I will love her that much more," Thompson said.

Although she wasn't forced to leave, Kahle is now in public school and no longer attending Timberlake Christian. She wishes things would have turned out differently.

"I should just be able to be me and not let them worry about it," Kahle said.

Jeff Abbett, administrator of Timberlake Christian Schools, sent WDBJ7 the following statement Tuesday afternoon:

"We are heart-broken that Sunnie’s grandparents have made her the subject of a public discussion. We regret that they made the decision to withdraw Sunnie immediately from Timberlake Christian Schools.

For confidentiality reasons related to a minor, it is not possible for us to explain in full detail the volume of documentation we have concerning the situation that the grandparents have made public. There is much more to this story than has been revealed related to Sunnie and the classroom environment. Our documentation shows a significantly different narrative than the one portrayed in the original news report.

You can be assured that we have cared for Sunnie and worked with her grandparents for several years to assist them. Our TCS teachers and administrators love Sunnie and we can assure everyone that this has never been an issue of hair length or boots as it has been portrayed. It has been our constant desire over the last several years to work with this family and to shepherd this precious little girl in a way consistent with traditional values.

As a private Christian school, we have the responsibility to all our students to assist parents to instill the Christian values upon which our school is founded.

We reiterate that the decision to remove Sunnie was entirely that of the grandparents."

Thompson said that Kahle never had any behavioral issues at TCS and maintained a 4.0 average in her academic work. She said the only disciplinary issue that Kahle might have caused was that she wanted to wear boy's pants as part of her school uniform.

[Soon]

http://www.wdbj7.com/blob/view/-/251...s-Thompson.pdf

[Ginger]

Maybe they need to make their policy toward students' gender expression more clear in their admission and recruitment materials. I'm assuming it's a private school, and doesn't receive federal or state funds.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Soon

http://www.wdbj7.com/blob/view/-/251...s-Thompson.pdf

That letter is just gross. God-ordained identity? Bloody hell

[*Anya*]

8 year-old girl disqualified from soccer game because she 'looks like a boy'

SPRINGFIELD, Nebr. (WOWT) Mili Hernandez is 8 years-old. She loves soccer - and her short haircut.

Mili told WOWT 6 News: "When my hair starts to grow I put it short because I've always had short hair. I didn't like my hair long."

Mili plays soccer for Omaha's Azzuri Cachorros girls club team. She's so good that she plays on the 11 year-old roster even though she's 8. Her father, Gerardo Hernandez, couldn't be more proud. He told WOWT 6 News: "It's what she likes. It's what she always wants to do - play soccer."

This weekend Mili helped lead her team to the finals of the Springfield Soccer Club girls tournament. However, before taking the field on Sunday, Mili and her team were suddenly disqualified. Springfield soccer organizers insisted Mili was a boy.

Gerardo Hernandez told WOWT 6 News that his daughter "was in shock." He continued: "She was crying after they told us... They made her cry."

Mili added: "Just because I look like a boy doesn't mean I am a boy. They don't have a reason to kick the whole club out."

Mili's family claims they showed her insurance card to tournament organizers in an effort to prove she's a girl. It wasn't enough.

Mili's brother, Cruz Hernandez, told WOWT 6 News: "They didn't want to listen. They said the president made his decision and there wasn't any changing that."

Mili told WOWT 6 News she thinks the situation isn't fair. However, she won't let it stop her from playing. She said: "There's other tournaments that I can play."

Springfield Soccer Club organizers declined WOWT 6 News's request for an interview, directing us to contact their attorney on Monday, instead.

Organizers also said if Mili's family wants to challenge the disqualification they can appeal it with the Nebraska State Soccer Association.


http://media.graytvinc.com/images/690*448/MILI1.JPG

http://www.wowt.com/content/news/8-y...426397041.html

[Soft*Silver]

I was talking to my 3 year old grand daughter about her 3 month old baby sister. A friend of theirs had had a baby boy. I told her that if her baby sister had been born a boy, he would be her brother. She was adamant that she would be her sister...I was trying to explain to her gender...and caught myself...and listened to her. THIS is where it starts. This gender role assignment of others. We dress them in pink or blue and thats when self assignment begins but to assign others, its in the ID of brother sister, mommy daddy...

I really listen to her...she has alot to teach me...

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

8 year-old girl disqualified from soccer game because she 'looks like a boy'

SPRINGFIELD, Nebr. (WOWT) Mili Hernandez is 8 years-old. She loves soccer - and her short haircut.

Mili told WOWT 6 News: "When my hair starts to grow I put it short because I've always had short hair. I didn't like my hair long."

Mili plays soccer for Omaha's Azzuri Cachorros girls club team. She's so good that she plays on the 11 year-old roster even though she's 8. Her father, Gerardo Hernandez, couldn't be more proud. He told WOWT 6 News: "It's what she likes. It's what she always wants to do - play soccer."

This weekend Mili helped lead her team to the finals of the Springfield Soccer Club girls tournament. However, before taking the field on Sunday, Mili and her team were suddenly disqualified. Springfield soccer organizers insisted Mili was a boy.

Gerardo Hernandez told WOWT 6 News that his daughter "was in shock." He continued: "She was crying after they told us... They made her cry."

Mili added: "Just because I look like a boy doesn't mean I am a boy. They don't have a reason to kick the whole club out."

Mili's family claims they showed her insurance card to tournament organizers in an effort to prove she's a girl. It wasn't enough.

Mili's brother, Cruz Hernandez, told WOWT 6 News: "They didn't want to listen. They said the president made his decision and there wasn't any changing that."

Mili told WOWT 6 News she thinks the situation isn't fair. However, she won't let it stop her from playing. She said: "There's other tournaments that I can play."

Springfield Soccer Club organizers declined WOWT 6 News's request for an interview, directing us to contact their attorney on Monday, instead.

Organizers also said if Mili's family wants to challenge the disqualification they can appeal it with the Nebraska State Soccer Association.


http://media.graytvinc.com/images/690*448/MILI1.JPG

http://www.wowt.com/content/news/8-y...426397041.html

This is effin ridiculous. I would challenge the board. Absolutely.