Butch Pronouns - A Questionaire

[DapperButch]

I continue to wonder why so many butches do not use the pronoun preferred slot under their name. Then this issue of people being insulted when someone uses the wrong pronoun for them could be avoided.

The reality (whether we want to see it or not), is that people have defaults, based on their experiences with butches (online and offline). I find it hard to believe that most people are purposely calling others by the wrong pronoun due to their own agenda as to what pronoun they believe should be the default pronoun for a butch.

I think it is unfair for someone to be upset if the wrong pronoun is used for them if they do not tell the member what to call them by using the preferred pronoun slot. It is not fair to expect that everyone will remember what pronoun you/someone else used to refer to you in a post long ago (that most likely, the person never even read).

Too, even if you use the preferred pronoun slot, give people a break who make a mistake. There are people who have not been online for many years and do not know that there is a possibility that people prefer one pronoun over the other (I would suggest that offline b/f communities, especially those who do not frequent b/f forums, use one or the other almost exclusively).

I think that until we know otherwise, lets give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if you do not use the preferred pronoun slot). I know I appreciate it when someone uses it.

With all of that said, I have heard butches say that there are times that people know their preferred pronoun, yet insist on calling them by the speaker's preferred pronoun for butches. I see this as unexcusable. Like most things in life, it is all about intent.

One last thing, when talking about the above, I am obviously referring to times when one does not have the opportunity to ask the person's preferred pronoun before using a pronoun for the person (assuming the person has not used the pronoun slot).

[Parker]

Bouncing off of Dapper's thoughts: and if the butch has a preferred pronoun on their profile, but the wrong pronoun is accidentally used, it is not meant as an insult when that butch corrects the person speaking to them.

[Cin]

I am a woman and comfortable enough with my biological sex to consider myself a she. Genderwise it doesn't exactly fit for me but what are you gonna do. I am a feminist and my primary allegiance is and always will be with other women. I am a butch and I am a woman so the pronoun she works. However quirky as it may sound I don't mind when someone who sees me as a butch woman or even just understands me as butch calls me he. When people call me he because they can't see the woman I am because it doesn't match their idea of what a woman looks like or because I don't present the proper markers to trigger the female identity for them then I don't care for it so much.

I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it.

It's not the first time or the only situation where I have had to NOT use a pronoun when referencing someone. I am quite adept at it. Thankfully I don't have to do it to protect my job anymore. Born twenty years too soon.

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I continue to wonder why so many butches do not use the pronoun preferred slot under their name. Then this issue of people being insulted when someone uses the wrong pronoun for them could be avoided.

The reality (whether we want to see it or not), is that people have defaults, based on their experiences with butches (online and offline). I find it hard to believe that most people are purposely calling others by the wrong pronoun due to their own agenda as to what pronoun they believe should be the default pronoun for a butch.

I think it is unfair for someone to be upset if the wrong pronoun is used for them if they do not tell the member what to call them by using the preferred pronoun slot. It is not fair to expect that everyone will remember what pronoun you/someone else used to refer to you in a post long ago (that most likely, the person never even read).

Too, even if you use the preferred pronoun slot, give people a break who make a mistake. There are people who have not been online for many years and do not know that there is a possibility that people prefer one pronoun over the other (I would suggest that offline b/f communities, especially those who do not frequent b/f forums, use one or the other almost exclusively).

I think that until we know otherwise, lets give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if you do not use the preferred pronoun slot). I know I appreciate it when someone uses it.

With all of that said, I have heard butches say that there are times that people know their preferred pronoun, yet insist on calling them by the speaker's preferred pronoun for butches. I see this as unexcusable. Like most things in life, it is all about intent.

One last thing, when talking about the above, I am obviously referring to times when one does not have the opportunity to ask the person's preferred pronoun before using a pronoun for the person (assuming the person has not used the pronoun slot).

Dapper gets the prize for using the word 'pronoun' the most times (correctly) in one post.

I wanted to show up and basically agree with every one. The first two parts I have bolded above make perfect sense to me. I have in the past used the pronoun space or not, mostly not. It is not to confuse, but I just don't get all wound up about it if someone who doesn't know me picks whatever is handy. People who know me beyond posts, or have seen me post over time will know that I prefer gender neutral and that there are plenty of choices that are non-specific. If it is more comfortable for the other person to use gender specific pronouns, I would trend toward male. It fits in my head better as it is how I ID to myself.

To that end, at least for now, I have filled in that slot. We have a lot of new folks on the site and I can see where if they are new to BF terminology or gender politics it could make them more comfortable if they want to address me. I don't know how long it will be there but it is now.

The third portion I bolded above is something I have also experienced. I put it in the same category as other forms of willful disrespect.

Originally Posted by Parker

Bouncing off of Dapper's thoughts: and if the butch has a preferred pronoun on their profile, but the wrong pronoun is accidentally used, it is not meant as an insult when that butch corrects the person speaking to them.

Agreeing here also, but mostly using this as a springboard to ask Parker something I've wanted to know for a while but keep forgetting to ask. You list your preference as 'She, of course!' (currently and for a while now), my question is why use the 'of course' part? To me when looking at a butch's profile there is no assumed default. I would see it more useful for a femme (don't take that the wrong way) just because I don't see femmes IDing as male. Anything is possible though.

The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly?

BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all...

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

<snip>

I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it.

Good policy and one I use too.

[DapperButch]

Kelt,
Something that is very funny is earlier today I was reminded that you don't use the pronoun slot. I was actually going to razz you about it, but didn't, because I'm nice like that.

Thanks for your post. Lets hear it for using the pronoun slot so ALL genders/sexes can live in harmony!

<--- thinks we have a pronounphobicslot epidemic here

[macele]

i've always liked the fact that melissa etheridge stays away from using pronouns in her songs. it's neutral. can go either way. but, i've never really gave pronouns much thought as in referring to me. i've always been a she and it doesn't bother me, ... never have felt that i should be anything other than she/her. i am butch, btw. a woman. female. lesbian. sometimes a smartass. sometimes a tomboy. all days a diehard pat summitt fan. etc. etc. ...

i will call you whatever makes you happy. that's what matters. if you are happy.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Agreeing here also, but mostly using this as a springboard to ask Parker something I've wanted to know for a while but keep forgetting to ask. You list your preference as 'She, of course!' (currently and for a while now), my question is why use the 'of course' part? To me when looking at a butch's profile there is no assumed default. I would see it more useful for a femme (don't take that the wrong way) just because I don't see femmes IDing as male. Anything is possible though.

The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly?

BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all...

I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"?

Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.

Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by Parker

I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"?

Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.

Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol

I now understand how it is to be read from your point of view, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

I find one part of your underlying premise to be untenable, "and women use "she". However, it is not part of my original question which was a simple curiosity based linguistics question about your chosen phraseology. In light of that, I will respectfully agree to disagree on that point.

I know neither one of us wants to reopen a decade old debate. So again, thank you for your answer.

[princessbelle]

I would like to mention that i've never ran across anyone who would get upset when using the wrong pronoun. Especially at the beginning.

You can't tell by appearance, by gender, by anything else for that matter so there are honestly, no clues. It is just a personal decision. I also do try to steer away from it best i can, by using you or the name of the person when i'm not sure and don't want to appear rude.

Let's face it we are a community of very fluid pronouns and most of us know by now to ask which one to use for which person. At times i do feel like i need a schematic to keep up with it and boy oh boy do i falter. But, MY experience has been met with kindness and a gentle redirection.

You could tell me you are a she and the next sentence it could come out a he, but i mean no harm or disrespect. It's just hard to remember for me.

On top of that we are all evolving and growing and changing and our gender and or pronouns do too sometimes.

It's best to ask, but hard to remember. I guess would be my answer to this ever changing pronoun.

[Kelt]

Princessbelle,

I completely agree with you. Your point about not having external identifiers is especially pertinent online, most of the time we have no idea as to the appearance, much less preferences, of any given individual. A little flexibility goes a long way.

I think the English language has evolved significantly over time and already provides many gender neutral options as is. If the it hadn't we'd still be using a lot of thee's and thou's. Seeing the evolution of terms in urban slang and also in personal identifiers is promising. I hope it continues and that the use of gender specifics diminishes and that people of all sorts begin to view it as less relevant in conversation.

[odd_boi_out]

The Butch Pronoun Questionnaire

1. How do you identify? Transmasculine, butch

2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? They

2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Pretty well, I guess

2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I used he for a number of years, and she when I was growing up

3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? I always prefer they, but in some settings and around some people I don't feel comfortable sharing that. Most people tend to default to using he for me unless I tell them otherwise.

4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Moderately important, though I don't get too bent out of shape about it

5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Somewhat invalidated, but I'm pretty used to it

5b. How do/would you react? I probably wouldn't do anything

6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Confused, and a little embarassed

6b. How do/would you react? Again, I probably wouldn't do anything. I'm ridiculously nonconfrontational.

7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Really confused. I've never heard/seen anyone use the pronoun hy outside of this forum.

7b. How do/would you react? I'm not sure.

8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? A little frustrated, I think, though also impressed that the person was comfortable with nonbinary pronouns.

8b. How do/would you react? I would probably make a point to let the person know that I don't use the pronoun zie.

9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? In general, I strive to ensure that I use people's preferred pronouns.

10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really. I used to, but as a butch who has preferred different pronouns over the course of my (rather short) life but who myself has changed very little, I no longer really associate universal distinctions between butches who identify with different pronouns.

11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I would probably avoid using a pronoun or use the pronoun that others are using for them. If I really felt that I had to default, I would probably default to she. I know more butches who prefer she than those who prefer other pronouns.

11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Each person has the right to decide what pronoun works best for them.

12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? Not usually, but if I had to, I'd probably use she, for the reason given above.

13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I've never partnered with a butch before.

14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No

[Kelt]

I’m baaack.

I know I said I would let go of this, but of course I couldn’t. This statement has been festering away in my brain for days now. (I don’t like feeling erased)

Originally Posted by Parker

I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"?

Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.

Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol

I honestly didn’t think there was anyway I could make sense out of it but I might have now and I am hoping that Parker will come in here and give me a confirmation. Or denial, either way I really am trying to figure out context.

Generally speaking when I read something I try to look at the surrounding context to make sure I’m getting it right. If it still doesn’t work I default to the dictionary or encyclopedia. This is a case where I couldn’t make it work either way. The problem is I know that Parker is smart and more importantly, significantly better at being politically correct than I am.

So, I’ve been doing a wider search. I went out into the Internet and combed through dozens of videos, blog posts, and articles written/spoken by butches of varying ages and locations. In some cases I saw the word woman being used in a somewhat different (but unclear) way although mostly the dictionary way. Then I came back here to this website and searched the forums. I found a thread that started back in 2009, a big one about this subject. I got through 126 large posts before I found one that stated that to some people female=sex and woman=gender.

If I frame it as a gender instead of biology I can understand (after a lot of digging) what was meant. I’m looking for verification. Specifically from Parker; is this what you meant?

If it is, a little alternative definition in your reply would have gone a long way. Someone new to this site or the dynamic might not get it. I didn't.

[Kelt]

Well, I'm getting an education.

I want to thank the folks that have pm'd to send more information or give their point of view.

Clearly I have more studying to do. Back to the archives for more.