Top Surgery for Butches: Have you thought about it?

DapperButch · 10-21-2013, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by easygoingfemme

Sidebar question I have pondered with my partner:
If a female identified person has top surgery, can they legally walk around topless? Because that would be *awesome*.

I don't know what our lawbooks say, but cultural norms would suggest, yes.

I think it is the chest, not the identity that determines these things. Our society equals male chest with male, I think. I think the typical observer would assume the person to be male, regardless as their other secondary sex characteristics. We are so programmed to the gender binary when it comes to breasts and genitals.

-----------------

If it is based on male versus female, it would come down to the person's legal gender marker. I believe that most States (not all), will allow a gender marker change after top surgery. Standard practice is for the top surgery surgeon to give you a letter saying that you should be deemed male due to having top surgery. One takes that letter to court.

But, lets say the "law" about being topless in your county is based on your sex. Picture the transitioning FTM, full beard, top surgery completed, on the topless beach, but hasn't gone to court yet for the gender marker change. If it is based on sex, then it would be just as illegal for him to be topless as the full-breasted, cisgendered female sitting next to him. Crazy, huh?

Jar · 10-21-2013, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I don't know what our lawbooks say, but cultural norms would suggest, yes.

I think it is the chest, not the identity that determines these things.

That's a good question. I've seen some men that have some boobs going on and they're running around topless. I guess the shock factor is based on the perceived gender

DapperButch · 10-21-2013, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Picture the transitioning FTM, full beard, top surgery completed, on the topless beach, but hasn't gone to court yet for the gender marker change. If it is based on sex, then it would be just as illegal for him to be topless as the full-breasted, cisgendered female sitting next to him. Crazy, huh?

Sorry, I meant on a NON topless beach.

easygoingfemme · 10-21-2013, 03:27 PM

Yup, all that. Sorry to have derailed this thread. My partner and I laugh a lot about potential scenarios, like if we back tracked to a few years ago when he had top surgery, facial hair, deepened voice, etc but had not gotten all gender markers changed- legally was he in that same limbo, though fully passing/living as male. But if I ever needed top surgery, cancer or whatever- (it runs in my family) - with no desire to ever change my gender marker or my female identity would I able to hang out topless with him? Just one of those things where I scratch my head at society. Hide the ta-tas!

Cin · 10-21-2013, 04:25 PM

Been thinking about this thread...

I doubt I can get anyone to sign off on a breast reduction without some planning. Up till now I have never had any complaints of backaches or anything like that, so there would be no record of problems with my breasts. I had a shoulder injury but it’s clearly documented in my medical records what happened and has nothing to do with my breasts. And I’m not sure I really want a reduction. It’s not like my breasts are gigantic and I would be happy if they were a bit smaller. It’s more that I don’t want them on my body. I don’t think there is a size that would make them more palatable. Well, maybe a triple A or double A. I hate wearing a bra. And as I age I don’t feel comfortable not wearing one. The thing is I don’t think reduction is the way I want to go. I need to think on it a bit, but when I read Dapperbutch’s experience and how happy he is with the results I want that too.

I never really thought of myself as being gender dysphoric. I know I’m okay with my assigned sex but gender is more difficult for me. I’m happy being female in my own butch way. I wouldn’t want to be anything other than a woman. So this whole thing is confusing. But it’s nice to know I’m not alone.

And it might just be something that I never do. Or it might become a financial reality in the future. Either way it's nice to have this place to talk about it and read about people's feelings and experiences.

Thanks to all who have posted.

BullDog · 10-21-2013, 05:03 PM

I feel so much like you do Miss Tick. I have never felt I was gender dysphoric either. If I am ever in the position where I can seriously consider having top surgery done, I am going to have to figure out how to approach that. I read part of the Standards of Care from the PDF Dapper linked to, and I really don't relate to what they are talking about in terms of gender dysphoria. However, I have wanted to have chest surgery for a very long time.

weatherboi · 10-21-2013, 05:22 PM

Hi folks

My doctor calls that body dysphoria or dysmorphic?? considering the issue seems to surround a concern with the body part but not the gender.

imperfect_cupcake · 10-21-2013, 06:03 PM

I have been very body dysphoric without it pertaining to my gender and it often sounded a lot like what some butches go through. It went on for fucking decades. it's only been since about three years ago that it completely stopped. but it was pretty awful. Sometimes I'd lay on the bed and cry, like I was wearing a too tight wet suit of the wrong skin.

nothing to do with gender for me though. But I empathise at how painful it can be.

Having the surgery did help initially. but not ultimately.

Words · 10-21-2013, 06:17 PM

I have to admit that when B. decided to go for top surgery, he presented himself as an FtM (he was already on T) rather than a third gendered/transgendered butch because he was concerned that if he didn't, the surgery wouldn't be approved (and paid for by the NHS). It did feel a little dishonest, and who knows, perhaps it would have been approved anyway, but he thought it best not to risk it and I can certainly understand why.

What took me by surprise a little was the fact that even people who knew B. fairly well assumed that the reason he wanted the surgery was because he wanted to change gender. Some even went so far as to raise an eyebrow as if to say ''Don't try to kid me'' when we told them that wasn't the case. They just wouldn't believe that he was happy being third gendered or that his main reason for wanting the surgery was so that he could finally, after years and years of wearing double binders - yes, they were that large -know the joy of slipping on a cool cotton t-shirt and immediately being 'ready to go' (more than two years down the line and he still comments frequently on just how wonderful that feels). But then, we got - and still get - the same reaction in regard to his being on T and the obvious effects of that so it shouldn't have really come as any surprise - and yet it did. *Shrug.*

Anyway, great thread.

Words

10-21-2013, 05:22 PM	#7
weatherboi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Owned boy Preferred Pronoun?: Hey boy!!! Relationship Status: counting freckles slowly under Her direction!!! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: i have 2 sets of geographic coordinates!!! Posts: 6,097 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,797 Thanked 12,549 Times in 2,993 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Hi folks My doctor calls that body dysphoria or dysmorphic?? considering the issue seems to surround a concern with the body part but not the gender. __________________

10-21-2013, 03:27 PM	#4
easygoingfemme Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Lil' Miss Sassy Pants Preferred Pronoun?: She/her Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: My place by the river Posts: 3,692 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 7,023 Thanked 14,975 Times in 3,318 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Yup, all that. Sorry to have derailed this thread. My partner and I laugh a lot about potential scenarios, like if we back tracked to a few years ago when he had top surgery, facial hair, deepened voice, etc but had not gotten all gender markers changed- legally was he in that same limbo, though fully passing/living as male. But if I ever needed top surgery, cancer or whatever- (it runs in my family) - with no desire to ever change my gender marker or my female identity would I able to hang out topless with him? Just one of those things where I scratch my head at society. Hide the ta-tas!

10-21-2013, 04:25 PM	#5
Cin Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: Truly Madly Deeply Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: In My Head Posts: 2,815 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 6,333 Thanked 10,402 Times in 2,477 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Been thinking about this thread... I doubt I can get anyone to sign off on a breast reduction without some planning. Up till now I have never had any complaints of backaches or anything like that, so there would be no record of problems with my breasts. I had a shoulder injury but it’s clearly documented in my medical records what happened and has nothing to do with my breasts. And I’m not sure I really want a reduction. It’s not like my breasts are gigantic and I would be happy if they were a bit smaller. It’s more that I don’t want them on my body. I don’t think there is a size that would make them more palatable. Well, maybe a triple A or double A. I hate wearing a bra. And as I age I don’t feel comfortable not wearing one. The thing is I don’t think reduction is the way I want to go. I need to think on it a bit, but when I read Dapperbutch’s experience and how happy he is with the results I want that too. I never really thought of myself as being gender dysphoric. I know I’m okay with my assigned sex but gender is more difficult for me. I’m happy being female in my own butch way. I wouldn’t want to be anything other than a woman. So this whole thing is confusing. But it’s nice to know I’m not alone. And it might just be something that I never do. Or it might become a financial reality in the future. Either way it's nice to have this place to talk about it and read about people's feelings and experiences. Thanks to all who have posted.

10-21-2013, 05:03 PM	#6
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I feel so much like you do Miss Tick. I have never felt I was gender dysphoric either. If I am ever in the position where I can seriously consider having top surgery done, I am going to have to figure out how to approach that. I read part of the Standards of Care from the PDF Dapper linked to, and I really don't relate to what they are talking about in terms of gender dysphoria. However, I have wanted to have chest surgery for a very long time.

10-21-2013, 06:03 PM	#8
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,712 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I have been very body dysphoric without it pertaining to my gender and it often sounded a lot like what some butches go through. It went on for fucking decades. it's only been since about three years ago that it completely stopped. but it was pretty awful. Sometimes I'd lay on the bed and cry, like I was wearing a too tight wet suit of the wrong skin. nothing to do with gender for me though. But I empathise at how painful it can be. Having the surgery did help initially. but not ultimately.

10-21-2013, 06:17 PM	#9
Words Member How Do You Identify?: Queer femme submissive Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 969 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,449 Thanked 4,258 Times in 677 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I have to admit that when B. decided to go for top surgery, he presented himself as an FtM (he was already on T) rather than a third gendered/transgendered butch because he was concerned that if he didn't, the surgery wouldn't be approved (and paid for by the NHS). It did feel a little dishonest, and who knows, perhaps it would have been approved anyway, but he thought it best not to risk it and I can certainly understand why. What took me by surprise a little was the fact that even people who knew B. fairly well assumed that the reason he wanted the surgery was because he wanted to change gender. Some even went so far as to raise an eyebrow as if to say ''Don't try to kid me'' when we told them that wasn't the case. They just wouldn't believe that he was happy being third gendered or that his main reason for wanting the surgery was so that he could finally, after years and years of wearing double binders - yes, they were that large -know the joy of slipping on a cool cotton t-shirt and immediately being 'ready to go' (more than two years down the line and he still comments frequently on just how wonderful that feels). But then, we got - and still get - the same reaction in regard to his being on T and the obvious effects of that so it shouldn't have really come as any surprise - and yet it did. Shrug. Anyway, great thread. Words