What TO DO in a relationship.....

[Sweet Bliss]

Originally Posted by Sweet Bliss

CIJS here ... bull crap, bull crap, bull crap.

In 56 years I have yet to meet or know a person who is "honest". So don't even start the "be honest" parade. Instead of focusing on others focus on your own actions attitudes expectations beliefs etc. I have learned that people will only expose themselves when they have reached THEIR OWN level of trust and safety with another person. Not when YOU DECIDE they should open themselves up to your scrutiny.

YOU (the collective you) are not judge and jury of the other parties level of comfort safety integrity nor in charge of how they experience their lives or deal with their personal issues.

The only person you have a right to examine for flaws is yourself.

The battle cry for "honesty" is moot in the face of lies we tell and believe about ourselves.

Our only option is to decide whether to believe what we are told.

Ask yourself - Is that a story that could be true?

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Sweet Bliss

...
The battle cry for "honesty" is moot in the face of lies we tell and believe about ourselves.
...

That's what I was saying.

And I think being self-honest takes lifelong effort, or at least for me it does. "Know yourself," is another way to say it.

[Okiebug61]

Ten years with Red has worked because we love for the past, the now and the future. We have been through a lot and learned a lot. Relationships are not easy, but when you find the right person every ounce of sweat and tears is worth it.

[macele]

do things together. plan, plan, plan. picnics. walks after dark. wake up to see the sunrise on the weekend. do projects together. like build a treehouse (or just a "loft", no tree) without a roof. better to see the stars. the moon. the moon behind the clouds. inspire each other with plans.

[mountainbikedyke]

Make her laugh, and not just AT you...

[imperfect_cupcake]

I no longer have any idea. I know what I like and need. I know what I enjoy doing and what I can't do.

but other than that, I'm kind of at "fuck it."
I sincerely no longer know anything.
And I'm kind of ok with it.

[little_ms_sunshyne]

Don't have so many expectations of what a significant other or relationship should be that you forget to enjoy each other and all those wonderful moments that really matter

[Nic]

Originally Posted by Sweet Bliss

In 56 years I have yet to meet or know a person who is "honest". So don't even start the "be honest" parade. Instead of focusing on others focus on your own actions attitudes expectations beliefs etc. I have learned that people will only expose themselves when they have reached THEIR OWN level of trust and safety with another person. Not when YOU DECIDE they should open themselves up to your scrutiny.

YOU (the collective you) are not judge and jury of the other parties level of comfort safety integrity nor in charge of how they experience their lives or deal with their personal issues.

The only person you have a right to examine for flaws is yourself.

The battle cry for "honesty" is moot in the face of lies we tell and believe about ourselves.

Our only option is to decide whether to believe what we are told.

Ask yourself - Is that a story that could be true?

Based on current events in my life, this is one of the most insightful things I've ever read.

Without a ton of detail, the woman I'm dating comes from a past she's not proud of. She never talked about it until I pressed her to take our relationship a step further. She freaked out, wanted to break things off. Took a while to figure out the why and what of that. She told me she wasn't relationship material and never would be.

Never knew anyone who was afraid of love, or honesty for that matter. Totally foreign ideas because I grew up being loved 24/7 and praised for honesty. For her, genetics and childhood programming and, later, addiction along with human stupidity created circumstances most people would find impossible to do well in without professional help. She's not prone to allow that as an explanation for her past actions. I've got no problem holding her responsible for herself but there are also things outside our control. She owns her actions, past and present. I see and hear it on a daily basis. Might not have been comfortable trusting her if I'd met her, say, 15 years ago. Today I'd trust her with my life. Knowing her gives me a different perspective on the things Bliss mentions in her post. My attitude, expectation, perspective and the ways I self examine have changed a lot in the last 6 months.

Lack of double standard or emotional manipulation takes the legs out from under the family of origin model my girl has in her head. She has to work on accepting that she's not going to be penalized for existing, let alone for having needs. Peeling away that layer of crap made me pretty excited for her and for us but it turned out she was even more reluctant to move forward in our relationship after that. Almost didn't take things to the stage we're at now because she didn't know how to accept or function in a healthy environment. Confused me until I started educating myself. Learned about PTSD from her therapist. Learned about life where you're not penalized for needing something or having expectations is foreign to too many people, most of them women apparently. I had some pretty hard core opinions about honesty before I met my girl. Some lofty opinions of myself too as it turns out. Being invited to go with her to therapy and several in depth discussions with the therapist about the ramifications of PTSD gave me a new understanding of "honesty".

I agree with Bliss. We believe a lot of things about ourselves and tell ourselves a lot of things too. So if you don't know the truth, how do you know you're telling it? Abiding by it? Perpetuating it? And if the truth poses a threat, even just a perceived one, how do know you will speak it? I'll be damned if I can judge someone for lying to keep safe if I've never been penalized for telling the truth. Wouldn't have said that a year ago. Without a change in perspective I'd have said honesty was telling the truth 100% of the time. Discussions with her therapist has taught me that intimacy and honesty live in layers. Some people have layers that won't ever get exposure no matter how much safety or encouragement is offered so they're always going to be "lying" in one way or another if you're judging based on the "always tell the truth" model. Does that make them bad people or does it mean you don't get the whole truth? Would you get the whole truth if you found the right door and knocked on it in a way they can understand or trust?

The day her therapist told me there are people who have no clue how to recognize honesty or trustworthiness in themselves let alone in others I was blown away. Who doesn't know if they're being honest? Worse, people who don't know who or how to trust usually have no idea what love looks like when it's given. Idea made me sick to my stomach. Can't imagine what kind of hell it is to not to know what honesty or security or love looks like or to be afraid of any of it. Got to be an effing nightmare. How can I judge anybody who's world looks like that? If they're not being accountable maybe. But otherwise, I just don't know.

It's pretty easy to judge or to have expectations and such. Habit, perception, attitude, beliefs, whatever I want to call it leads me to judge all the time. Get to pat myself on the back for it too because I pride myself on being an honest man. (Aren't I just great!) Sharing this experience opened my eyes to things I never thought about before meeting my girl. Judgment is easy with family and friends backing you about how right you are and how wrong someone else is. Biggest lesson for me was considering how I might make it hard for someone to tell me the truth. My judgement and attitude might make intimacy or honesty a terrifying thing for someone with different perspective or experience, family model, etc. I always say I hold people responsible for themselves and that people should be honest no matter what. Now I wonder just how honest I really am and what honesty looks like for people who aren't me. Most important thing I learned from her therapist was when he said that people who claim they're honest 100% of the time are lying through their teeth. Made me laugh at the time. Gave me something to think about later.

[girl_dee]

do take time to do some self care........

[flapdoodle]

I read every word.
it gave me a lot to think about as well
thank you and Bliss for such candor.

Originally Posted by Nic

Based on current events in my life, this is one of the most insightful things I've ever read.

Without a ton of detail, the woman I'm dating comes from a past she's not proud of. She never talked about it until I pressed her to take our relationship a step further. She freaked out, wanted to break things off. Took a while to figure out the why and what of that. She told me she wasn't relationship material and never would be.

Never knew anyone who was afraid of love, or honesty for that matter. Totally foreign ideas because I grew up being loved 24/7 and praised for honesty. For her, genetics and childhood programming and, later, addiction along with human stupidity created circumstances most people would find impossible to do well in without professional help. She's not prone to allow that as an explanation for her past actions. I've got no problem holding her responsible for herself but there are also things outside our control. She owns her actions, past and present. I see and hear it on a daily basis. Might not have been comfortable trusting her if I'd met her, say, 15 years ago. Today I'd trust her with my life. Knowing her gives me a different perspective on the things Bliss mentions in her post. My attitude, expectation, perspective and the ways I self examine have changed a lot in the last 6 months.

Lack of double standard or emotional manipulation takes the legs out from under the family of origin model my girl has in her head. She has to work on accepting that she's not going to be penalized for existing, let alone for having needs. Peeling away that layer of crap made me pretty excited for her and for us but it turned out she was even more reluctant to move forward in our relationship after that. Almost didn't take things to the stage we're at now because she didn't know how to accept or function in a healthy environment. Confused me until I started educating myself. Learned about PTSD from her therapist. Learned about life where you're not penalized for needing something or having expectations is foreign to too many people, most of them women apparently. I had some pretty hard core opinions about honesty before I met my girl. Some lofty opinions of myself too as it turns out. Being invited to go with her to therapy and several in depth discussions with the therapist about the ramifications of PTSD gave me a new understanding of "honesty".

I agree with Bliss. We believe a lot of things about ourselves and tell ourselves a lot of things too. So if you don't know the truth, how do you know you're telling it? Abiding by it? Perpetuating it? And if the truth poses a threat, even just a perceived one, how do know you will speak it? I'll be damned if I can judge someone for lying to keep safe if I've never been penalized for telling the truth. Wouldn't have said that a year ago. Without a change in perspective I'd have said honesty was telling the truth 100% of the time. Discussions with her therapist has taught me that intimacy and honesty live in layers. Some people have layers that won't ever get exposure no matter how much safety or encouragement is offered so they're always going to be "lying" in one way or another if you're judging based on the "always tell the truth" model. Does that make them bad people or does it mean you don't get the whole truth? Would you get the whole truth if you found the right door and knocked on it in a way they can understand or trust?

The day her therapist told me there are people who have no clue how to recognize honesty or trustworthiness in themselves let alone in others I was blown away. Who doesn't know if they're being honest? Worse, people who don't know who or how to trust usually have no idea what love looks like when it's given. Idea made me sick to my stomach. Can't imagine what kind of hell it is to not to know what honesty or security or love looks like or to be afraid of any of it. Got to be an effing nightmare. How can I judge anybody who's world looks like that? If they're not being accountable maybe. But otherwise, I just don't know.

It's pretty easy to judge or to have expectations and such. Habit, perception, attitude, beliefs, whatever I want to call it leads me to judge all the time. Get to pat myself on the back for it too because I pride myself on being an honest man. (Aren't I just great!) Sharing this experience opened my eyes to things I never thought about before meeting my girl. Judgment is easy with family and friends backing you about how right you are and how wrong someone else is. Biggest lesson for me was considering how I might make it hard for someone to tell me the truth. My judgement and attitude might make intimacy or honesty a terrifying thing for someone with different perspective or experience, family model, etc. I always say I hold people responsible for themselves and that people should be honest no matter what. Now I wonder just how honest I really am and what honesty looks like for people who aren't me. Most important thing I learned from her therapist was when he said that people who claim they're honest 100% of the time are lying through their teeth. Made me laugh at the time. Gave me something to think about later.

[Sweet Bliss]

You are very welcome.