Changing last names

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Want and expect are two different things. I wouldn't suggest anyone date someone who "expected" someone to change their name.

IslandScout's word was "want", it was not "expect". A whole different ball of wax. If the post said "expect", I would have given the post a "thanks", instead of a response.

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[Bard]

This is just my opinion Desd took my last name when we married it was not about owning or her belonging to me we are equals in all aspects it was not so that we could be in a hetro like state . It was one thing that I had Never given to anyone and it was precious to me that she would take my name was a honor to me as we blended our lives two into one yet neither losing our own identity. None of my brothers have our family name they were adopted by their step father I am the only one that carries the name that was gifted to me by my father who I am very much like. I would have considered taking desd name if it had been important to her or a hyphenated thing and we also want to have children and they will carry on the name. my daughter has her mothers last name and my name is her middle name. i would never look down my nose at those who have no wish to change last name this is just us and what is right for us

[Loren_Q]

A name is personal. How one views it, what it's importance is belongs to the individual. There's no right/wrong thing here. What wouldn't be good is coercion or manipulation; the "If you love me you would" type of thing.

Now with that said my spouse took my name. We're both butch and in our relationship she is the dominant partner.

I didn't ask, want or expect her to take my name, not did I expect or want to take hers. On our 5 year anniversary she said she wanted to change her last name to mine because:
1. She didn't care for either parent (nor did they care for her).
2. The legal spelling of my last name is uniquely mine (long story).

I was surprised and glad for her. I didn't have a personal stake in the matter, but felt that if she's getting what she wants, then it's a good thing.

It's also a hoot that my Caucasian partner has an Asian last name. She's had a few interesting moments because of it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

OK how many butches are going to take the femmes name, if it'about sharing a name?

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout

Scout, I am not sure I am following you. Or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought.

For me it isn't just about femme's taking butches names. I have the same issue if butches wanted to take a femmes name or making a hyphened name, or making up a whole new name.

It is what the action symbolizes to the partners and to the society as a whole.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Scout, I am not sure I am following you. Or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought.

For me it isn't just about femme's taking butches names. I have the same issue if butches wanted to take a femmes name or making a hyphened name, or making up a whole new name.

It is what the action symbolizes to the partners and to the society as a whole.

You're right, and I was the one who wasn't clear.

[PoeticSilence]

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

[VintageFemme]

Originally Posted by PoeticSilence

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

I would definitely take my partner's name. And not for any of the reasons to or not to that I've been reading about in the thread, but simply because it's a lovely old school tradition and one that I personally find endearing and a small measure or token in sharing of my love. I adore the idea of the sharing in a name and two becoming one and I would have no issue in taking her name.

Having said that though, I do have to also say that I really like what you two have done together. It's sweet and unique and seems quite apropos. Nicely done.

[tantalizingfemme]

[QUOTE=Kobi;860805]

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?

[Kobi]

[quote=tantalizingfemme;860840]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?

I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth.

[tantalizingfemme]

[quote=Kobi;860846]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth.

Thanks. Was just checking.

[Ginger]

I like how we're all playing so nice with each other.

[tantalizingfemme]

As a feminist who believes in supporting all women, without judgment, I just want to say yay to those who do choose to change their last name and yay to those who don't. It all boils down to personal choice.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family".

I guess the first that I think when I read this is so what? What if they choose to do that?

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

All of what you say is probably true, and were it not for tradition and the norm of "our" culture to take the "masculine" surname, we would all have our own surnames forever and ever amen.

I work/worked with a mostly hispanic population; mostly fresh from Mexico or first generation citizens, where the women (most not all) did not take their husband's name when they married, instead they kept their family names.
They were just as married as i was, just as committed as we are...it really is a matter of culture and personal taste.

There really is no right or wrong, no good or bad, it is a very personal choice. I am no better or worse than you for taking Kasey's name, but for "us" it has helped when i'm in the hospital, among other things. She would have taken my last name when we married, but it is hard to spell, and mispronounced
constantly. Even though it was my hetro married name, after 22 years it was mine, but neither one of us wanted to keep it.

I have no issue with keeping your own (collective your) name, rock on with
the freedom of making personal choices...it wasn't all that long ago when it wasn't even possible to marry, let alone change your name without an expensive court mess.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.

I hear you and I think your logic is sound and your question is valid and it's something that I'm wondering about too.

[Bard]

We have friends that have been together for quite a while one of them came into the relationship with a child from a former marriage they also have child from AI that the more butch of the two carried. When they got married the butch took the femmes last name her married name so that now the whole family has the same name. Yes if Desd had wanted me to take her name I would have considered it my only reason for not wishing to would have been that I am the only of my fathers children to carry his last name. I was moved to tears when Desd want to take my last name