Changing last names

[imperfect_cupcake]

I would buy that bulldog, if the thought was born out of thin air.

or

If just as many butches took femmes names and it was equal. but taking a tradition from a heterosexual past, and applying it Feminine to Masculine....

I understand what you are trying to say and that's not why I am trying to point out.

people do things, even me, that are because of what they have learned as feminine to masculine traditions. they may have deconstructed them, they may be Uber Queer and both are women, but they are still acting traditions they recognise as feminine to masculine.

they did not make them up themselves. they are following what they are taught, feminine to masculine.

I am *NOT* calling people sheep, telling them they are bad, or evil for doing so.

actually, know what?

fine. no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.

we are innocent and entirely unto ourselves.

amen.

later folks

[BullDog]

Well, I believe there are probably more femmes who use cosmetics and wear dresses than there are butches that do. Do femmes do this to act like traditional heterosexual women/for heteronormative reasons, or do they have their own reasons and preferences for their appearance and how they express their gender?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.

We are different because the material reality of our lives as lived over generations has been different from the lives heterosexual couples lived. We are different because none of us truly was raised with male privilege. We are different because there still are not the institutional rewards and sanctions imposed upon us that most heterosexual couples benefit from/contend with.

But are we plagued by unexamined sexist expectations and beliefs? Yes, we are. As a group, in general, it is safe to say that we are. And it's a problem, IMO.

Having said that, I do not think that any given behavior functions in a heteronormative way in any given relationship. As you say, it depends on the couple and how self-aware they are. And I agree with Anya, at some point you gotta just live your life in the best way you know how, being happy and doing as little harm as possible.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Martina

We are different because none of us truly was raised with male privilege.

That's not true. I was failing to include transwomen. Many feel they benefited from some male privilege at some point. My apologies for that exclusion.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

fine. no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.

More thoughts.

We can't change gender norms over night. We understand sex and gender via the current construction of them. It's the world we grew up in and still live in.

So what would you have us do? We all repudiate some parts of heteronormativity. We reconstruct other parts of it, and we accept others -- because they work for us. Are the parts we accept perhaps reinforcing heteronormative expectations in our community and outside of it? Yes, probably.

But we don't live outside of history and culture. We live in it. We are all doing the best we can. There are people who support and endorse male/masculine superiority . . . well they are here but sorta marginalized. And there are people who kinda like it but are stealth or coy about it . . . seems like there are quite a few of those around. And then there are a lot of femmes and butches (more femmes) who are so hot for the dynamic that they try to enforce their version of it in an unexamined way -- because they want to find what they want out there. They want a world that makes them feel hot and validated to be real and populated. They want it to seem inevitable/natural. They do harm (e.g. femmes making fun of butches for wearing clothes made for women), but it's more that they are narcissistic and immature than deeply committed to some version of butch-femme that isn't even the status quo (never was, in fact).

And then there are people who do not believe in gender inequality, who understand that in the real world it's a human rights issue. However, these same people, some of them, may live lives and have relationships that look heteronormative. They are working it out for themselves in this world, where they grew up and learned what it means to be (insert ID) and what is sexually hot for them.

I am not all that alternative. I may be leather and may have been poly, but in most ways I am pretty conventional. I expend thought and energy to address sexism in my relationships and in my communities. I do. But I also choose to live the life that works for me. What else can I do? What else can anyone do?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

no one in butch or femme land ever does anything remotely heterosexual. we made all of our own dynamics up from thin air and out of our own bums. we were born blind to gender roles and created our own from scratch.

Of course that's not true. Plenty of sexism and misogyny going on everywhere and these boards are not immune. Reverence of the masculine absolutely.

You always have a great perspective. It’s not that I don’t agree with what you are saying because I do. I just don’t feel I have to cop to engaging in heteronormative behaviors in order to give my name to my wife. It was not a reflexive decision on my part.

And I don’t think I can make that call for anyone else.

[BullDog]

If there was widespread expectation that a femme should change her last name when marrying a butch, then I think that could be an indication of unexamined sexism and heteronormative values in this specific type of situation. However, I don't see that. Some people may disagree. There do seem to be more femmes who consider changing their names than butches, so perhaps there is something to it. However, any femme I have ever known who considered changing her last name to the butch's, it was totally her choice and one that appeared to be very well thought out. Same sex marriage is very recent, so yes most of our traditions surrounding marriage do come from traditions that have long been established by heterosexuals. I do think most queers when they do marry put a lot of thought into it and try to make it their own, but we are still working with the traditions that have gone before us.