In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

Let's say I have a friend who is trans and he lives his life as a male and he is a submissive bottom, there is an automatic judgment that is placed. And I can tell you, it is not made by other transfolk or MI Butches or most femme's for that matter. It is made by the chest pounding Lesbians that want their own space and don't recognize these people as having a right.

It seems to me like butch and trans bottoms get a lot of shit from male-ID'd folks and femmes who like male-ID'd folks. Folks who like masculine-lead relationships and the fantasy that that is the norm. I have seen a LOT of that. I think that lesbians out in the world would possibly crap on a butch for being a butch, but for being a bottom? I am sure it has happened. But the ultra political lesbian we seem to be constructing as a straw man might delight in the masculine bottom / feminine Top arrangement. I don't know.

I also missed the statement that a stone femme wasn't a femme. That should have been moderated. It might have been. I didn't see it, as I said.

As to lesbians telling a femme she isn't a lesbian if she dates a transman, I can imagine that happening. I have seen it in the real world. But it shouldn't happen. I imagine it happens less and less. No lesbian or group of lesbians gets to tell anyone who can ID as lesbian, queer or whatever. It's an obnoxious conversation. I think most people do not cross that line anymore. Those who do are saying more about themselves than they are about whoever they are talking about.

The whole thing about lesbian space here. Kobi made an argument for it on this thread, and Julie thanked her post. Kobi and Snow also had an exchange re masculine people coming into threads and making prurient remarks that I thought was useful and interesting. Kobi was like masculine-ID'd people come in to threads and make unwelcome remarks. Snow said something like I have seen that from all kinds of butches, which is true. Kobi thanked that post. It's interesting to me that Kobi saw the behavior as more egregious coming from a male-ID'd folks. I kind of get that, but as a femme, I can tell you, it makes little difference. Kobi is not a femme, so she might miss that subtlety.

Historically, on b-f.com, where many of us have a previous online history together, lesbian-bashing was permitted and very common. A lot of butches and femmes, whether lesbian or not, have had a problematic relationship with lesbian communities in the United States. Transmen and their partners have had a particularly hard time. I do not know why there was so much pleasure taken in lesbian bashing on that site. Perhaps because there had been so much hurt. A number of us rose up and changed the culture there some by confronting the anti-lesbian sentiment. We got no support from the administrators or monitors of that site. On the contrary. But things did get a lot better.

Originally Posted by Medusa

We have moderated a fair amount of folks for talking about what they have experienced in the Lesbian community and I have often felt really frustrated by that. Not because I don't think that we need to be very careful about making generalizations (of course this is important!), but because I have felt like it is somehow "taboo" to talk about the very real marginalization that Butches, Femmes, and Transpeople have experienced in the Lesbian community. It's especially frustrating when that conversation gets squashed in Butch,Femme, Trans space. Why? Because that's a very real conversation that is valid, truthful, and important.

When this site was founded, it seemed like they were going to tolerate less of that. And that has been the case. I get that there are a lot of people who are still angry with the lesbian community and would like to express that.

IMO, if they do get that opportunity, it will not be pretty. We might go back to the way it was at b-f.com. But the idea that there is a lot of pent up rage is kind of unpleasant to think about.

Kobi has recently been the self-appointed spokesperson for lesbian feminism on the site, more or less policing lapses when she finds them. I find some of her arguments ludicrous, and her approach nearly always lacks finesse. But honestly, she does seem to feel like she's struggling for air here. And it may be true. Maybe she's the canary in the coal mine, and I ought to be paying more attention to her discomfort.

She did have an interesting post where she talked about trying to connect online with radical feminists and encountered some rabid old school cultural feminists who hate transfolk. She was like, no thanks. I am more at home on the planet with my friends. (I am paraphrasing freely.) Seriously though, if someone like Kobi can't make it here, then neither can I.

I don't give a tinker's damn what Kobi herself thinks of my reaction to this stuff. (We have never gotten along.) But if she, or people like her, are to be vilified, I am going to stand on their side. I do not volunteer to go back to the b-f.com days when it was open season on lesbians.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Regarding the thanking Martina, I want you to know that my usage of the thank button doesn't mean anything other than:

Thank for participating, if I have something else to say I may use a rep note, only if I have something kind to say or I have a question that is not disruptive. I swear the thank button is ridiculous on how it gets viewed, I don't even want to thank anymore cause it's assigned so much damn power...

It's hard to be polite in this venue because manners/politeness gets turned into xyz, also I totally agree, that be it butch or guy when someone tromps into a Femme space I am like wtf.

I also feel the same way when a Femme goes into Butch/Guy space but that is always more welcomed than not. That's weird to me how that works

Thanks for letting me rant