only another butch would understand

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.

I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.

I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

Thanks for this clarification, Toughy. I appreciate this post....

[atomiczombie]

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. to all the female ID'd butches.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned.

Ditto here.

And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.

Not true.

The ones who have been most receptive and understanding have been bisexual women who wanted to go out with me and straight women I've met. (I won't date, of course, because I don't want to date anyone.) But I was amazed at how "natural" references and understanding came to bisexual and straight women I've met. It's a far cry from the gay men who didn't want me at their social gathering because their families would be there and the lesbian woman who told me I made her uncomfortable.

Yanno, i'm just tired of all of it. I can only do what pleases me. And maybe day I can be loved for what/who i am.

Anyway, just a comment about my experiences since i haven't dropped in the last several pages. Thanks for reading.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

Ditto here.

And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.

Not true.

I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Diva]

Because I know that sometimes, some wear their feelings on their sleeves about so many things, if there is any confusion on my part about which pronoun one prefers, I ask in a matter~of~fact way. I just want to know so that I will avoid any hurt feelings.

It doesn't make me cringe to make another person more comfortable with their identity.

[kassykit]

I try to not use pronouns, i use names, reason being is unless i really really know you i have a horrid memory!

and at least with chats and forums...........every time you post your name is RIGHT there for me!!!

am sorry if i slipped up at any time and offended!

Just don't blow up at me say

"hey kass" and correct me nicely

-sends warm fuzzy hugs for those that want them and stuffs-

[MainelyButch]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.

I'm with you on the "male pronouns make me cringe" as I want to be recognized as a woman still, even though I am very butch. I have learned so much from these forums (and other BF site forums) about the male id'd butch, and I respect that/them very much, yet I still want to personally be recognized as a strong butch woman, myself. It's been eye opening for me, living in small town Maine for sure. And the oft-times "invalidation within our own community", just pisses me off to no end. Why is it that us identifying ourselves as "butch" or "femme" is so threatening to some in our own community? I just can't understand this, you would think that there would be more support and acceptance within such a diverse community to start with, especially with the historical significance of the butch-femme dynamic.

Enjoying these forums, and looking forward to more topics and ideas. Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday season....to whatever degree you celebrate.

[Converse]

On several sites over the last few days I have been reading threads that go beyond encouraging discussion/debate and instead the OP appears to be leading the dialogue in what feels to me like a propaganda exercise- perhaps my perception is slightly biased because the topics concern judgment & criticism/disapproval/dislike of so many things that are important to me including: Old School; the use of Hy/Hym pronouns and everything to do with male identified Butches; High Femmes; and the D/g and D/s dynamics. Other than the contributors, the other commonality that these threads share is the constant use of the words “Misogyny” and “Feminism”.

Probably I would not be so concerned if these had been the usual lesbian sites, as ridicule and condemnation is something, being a Butch, that I have experienced from “our sisters” in varying degrees since the 1970’s. I have had those that I fought alongside with; turn on me, when political dialogue drew many to conclude that my “presentation” represented everything that they were against. So in reading these threads I was not at first overly concerned, and simply put it down to it being part of the cyclical phase, history repeating itself etc, until it struck me – this time I’m reading/listening to the same “ridicule and condemnation” on sites with Butch-Femme in their title.

I never believed that in a community supposedly forged by those who identified with Butch-Femme and all of its nuances, that I would have to explain that being Butch wasn’t a desperate attempt to become male, or that anything in being who I was or my way of conducting myself had anything to do with emulating male behavior, nor would I imagine that a High Femme would have to feel the need to justify her want to dress/act in a certain way because it ran contrary to some others perception of what claiming womanhood should look like, or a person identifying as a babygirl or a submissive needing to explain that this is a choice only able to be embraced because of their strength and has absolutely nothing to do with any weakness. I have even read posts that have questioned the intelligence of people when their lifestyle/persona/desires do not fit the OP’s “should list”.

I have written elsewhere that it would be naïve to believe that we could “be”- without ever being judged by some, but what is happening when the very essence of who we are is being judged by those, who by their membership of this community, at the very least claim to support if not understand? Has the membership of these sites changed so much that to assume support is no longer valid?

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I know exactly how you feel as a butch when your gender is not respected. Male pronouns make me cringe. But I don't intend to live with it, and I don't think you should live with wrong pronouns either. We just need to keep correcting people. I also concur that one would hope that the queer community would be most conscious of diversity- we don't expect to be invalidated in our own community. We just need to keep educating people. Most of them probably mean well...
As for a girlfriend or partner that tries to inflict hurt through intentional disrespect- that's just nasty and I'm sorry that happened to you.

I live in the deep south where pronouns are a part of respect, Every sentence begins with ..."Miss..." I can't change things—not even one person at a time; this is about tradition—hundreds of years, tradition. I think what pains me the most, is that I have danced around this issue for the better part of my life. I wanted to leave the midwest (which is nothing short of a tight perm) and come to an international city, thinking it would embrace diversity; it doesn't, it's just as provincial as LA; people were not "gender-ID" sensitive or versed there either.

Some things...

If I were to date again (which isn't plausible for me) I would do certain things, like make reservations and tell the restaurant that I want my wait staff to be gender-ID sensitive, and that protocol with me is to use masculine pronouns. Just an example of changing things in certain settings or situations.

But...

what really blows my mind is how discriminating folks are in our own community. My personal take is that I don't question people on who they are. It's not for me to understand, it's for me to respect another person, period.

I was "dis-invited" to 4th of July this year outing by a gay man who couldn't deal with the pronoun thing and didn't want me around because his sister and mother were going to be there. He was afraid I would embarrass them. I wasn't even given a chance to say that I would have been gracious towards them.

I'm done y'all. I live for myself—I don't get in anyone's way. I say very little.

Y'all have a wonderful holiday.

[BullDog]

I am out of state at the moment and very shaggy. I miss my barber Vinnie. My customary flat top may be out. I might have to go for the quick buzz as I step out into the unknown, lol.

[Stoney]

I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .

the relationship was very short lived after that day

It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.

now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)

now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.

hope this relates,

always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!

Stoney

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .

the relationship was very short lived after that day

It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.

now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)

now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.

hope this relates,

always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!

Stoney

I am so sorry you experienced this, Stoney. I don't know what causes some people to flip the switch like this. I will never get it after building up a trust, and thinking there is a very clear understanding about sexual-orientation and IDs. For me, the blow was that someone I loved, and who I never thought would stoop so low, did very much the same thing as we were breaking up. In that moment, it was as though I didn't even know her. Even though I went through this, it hasn't changed who i am. What has changed now is my complete lack of trust in getting involved. I will never—and i mean never—put trust in anyone again. The prospect of going it alone at 53, is not fun. But it is what it is.

[nytangel]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I have been reading this thread and I wanted to mention a previous thread right in the beginning. Ol'Jet you said something about being de- masculinized.. ( forgive me if I am saying it wrong) I noticed quite a few people who felt that that was more or less a male ID'd problem. I wanted to mention , that many years ago I was in a relationship with this woman , ( who first represented herself as a femme but really wasnt ,anyways that's another story ) This woman was something else, the butch- femme dynamic in the relationship pretty much flew outthe window the day I moved in with her. that day, I left my home and friends, traveled over 600 miles,had no sleep for days, unloaded a 18 foot truck full of my stuff and my kids into a garage! plus the whole 9 hour drive in a uhaul ( on my birthday) well I just sat down after all that , and I cried.She walked in the bedroom and looked at me and said ' HOPE YOU KNOW k how much you are turnin me off right now, I dont think Ill ever feel the same about you. Some fuckin butch! If I wanted a femme I would have stayed with my ex.( even though I am female Identified I have felt that pain , maybe not the same way but It was a huge blow for some reason, and i was effected by those words deeply. I was always having to prove my " butchiness" with her .

the relationship was very short lived after that day

It messed with my head a long time after that relationship ended. and for a long time every time I cried, her words would resurface.

now I am who I am, I cry, I laugh , I Burp( alot and very well I might add)

now it seems crazy that I let those words hurt me so much and question my very being.. but I definitely had a different mind set back then.

hope this relates,

always enjoy your posts Ol' Jet!

Stoney

Stoney, thank you for posting this. I hate crying worse than anything. I am comfortable in my skin and with who I am, but crying still makes me sometimes feel less. I know that crying is a good release and its very emotionallly healthy to do this. But still that masculine part that dwells in my spirit gets so angry when the water works start. And heaven forbid if my girl can see them even in my eyes. It's not her that makes me feel less ... its me and my own perception / expection of and for me.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. to all the female ID'd butches.

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

*grabbing your squishy ass*.... I miss you, my little sissy-boi.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

Thanks Sis. (hehe). I do respect you a great deal Tough, and you are someone I look up to in the community. I see how unapologetic you are about who you are and your rightful place in this world. It is a good role model for me. I know you have lived though much tougher times when it was more dangerous to be queer, and seeing you stand tall and proud is awesome.