Orange is the New Black: Season 2 Discussion

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have complicated feelings about season two. most of it was entertaining (esp. taystee and poussey) but eventually during the last few episodes it got contrived and boring (except for miss rosa's storyline at the end). i really loved daya and the guard's relationship and the complexities this season...they were incredibly realistic in their portrayal of the ups and downs. i was really made uncomfortable by the depiction of black women's lives and suffering and by vee's character. vee was the first completely unsympathetic character in the whole series - even pornstache is portrayed as a somewhat sympathetic character - and she is a black woman. it just really went too far for me with the way the group of black women were portrayed this season, as entertainment for an audience that's mostly white. it was realllllly hard to get past that and i'm hoping that more people start speaking up about it. i did really like that this season seemed to take a more big-picture view and address the issues of disenchantment (on behalf of the guards who started out wanting to do something good) and the overall corporate corruption of prisons.

I have been reading the thread and enjoying the discussion, and wanting to post but just haven't had the energy I guess.

aishah: I wanted to address what you wrote about the portrayal of black women in the series, and in particular Vee. It feels important and if nothing else I just want to say I heard you and am thinking about it. Maybe you and/or others would like to engage in further discussion about it?

As a white person I want to try and be respectful and open as possible to whatever racism may be going on in all of that. I will also say up front I did not experience the story line with Vee, Taystee, Crazy Eyes, Cindy, and Poussey in exactly the same way you did. I'm trying to check my white privilege in that.

I was very disturbed by Vee and what she did to the others, especially how she manipulated Crazy Eyes and also Taystee's loyalty to her. I agree that she was the only character in the series that came across as completely villainous. She had no redeeming qualities. I do find Pornstache repulsive and think he is more pathetic than SYMpathetic, but that's just me. But certainly the implications are different with Vee.

For me, I didn't see the depictions of black women as monolithic. I'm trying to think about how the stories about them as a GROUP are harmful. I see them as all having different experiences and motivations. Like, Taystee trying to be loyal to the only mother figure she's ever known, while at the same time fighting against her sense of what she knows deep down is right and her love for her best friend. Crazy Eyes just wants to be loved and accepted. Black Cindy I am not entirely certain of her motivation, actually.

I found Poussey a character that really blossomed over this season. I loved hearing her story and I think she was dimensional and brave and had amazing amounts of integrity and love. Also, as the only openly queer black woman on the show and the most masculine presenting black woman--she seems important.

So, I guess I am struggling with seeing the line between laying open black women's struggles for the consumption of white folks and brutal honesty. What do you think could have been differently to make the stories of the black women seem less racist?

[aishah]

it's not that i find the stories monolithic - they aren't. it's that the first character with no redeeming qualities whatsoever is a black woman, which is kind of odd, and i really am uncomfortable with the fact that it feels like a lot of the storylines around vee and the characters of other black women in the show are told in a way that feels - manipulative to the point of being contrived. like the show is exploiting the very real pain of taystee, poussey, cindy, crazy eyes, and the others (mostly at the hands of vee) for entertainment.

which, i get it's a tv show. it's just that it feels like the portrayals have changed. in the first season the stories told felt more real, less manipulative, less...like "watch what these black women do to each other to hurt each other." for your entertainment.

i'm not black and i'm definitely not saying my way of seeing it is the only way. but if this were a group of native women portrayed this way i would have had an impossible time watching this (as a native woman).

it just feels wrong that the group dynamics of the black characters were exploited in this way. there are other group dynamics - you could argue that pennsatucky had vee's leadership role with the meth addicts and red with most of the white girls - but pennsatucky and red were shown in a way that was more sympathetic and the angst of the characters in their groups was not done in such a manipulative, contrived, here-let's-put-this-on-display sort of way.

there were a lot of things about this season - and this show in general - that i've liked (pretty much everything except for piper and alex, they get on my nerves). and maybe i'm reading this wrong, it just really made it hard to finish out this season and it's made me think twice about whether i want to keep watching.

edited to add - and i'm really particularly frustrated with the way the stories around these characters and the way their relationships to each other were affected by vee. not in general. i am grateful for the fact that this is one of the few/only shows that depicts queer and trans women of color well. i do think that there were some redeeming qualities to the complex portrayal of vee's relationships to both taystee and crazy eyes - the way both of them are looking for affirmation and develop a sense of loyalty, etc. the show also does a good job portraying the latina characters, it feels to me, at least. it's not that ointb is terrible at portraying women of color.

it's just - taken as a whole, the big picture with the vee storyline and how her actions affect all the characters did not come off very well to me. maybe if vee had been less one-dimensional, it would have felt less like black women's pain (at her hands) was being put on display for ratings. it was over the top and unnecessary. and it was painful to watch.

[ProfPacker]

it was really weird tonight and a testament to her as an actress. I saw Lorraine Touisant on The Fosters and she was so sweet and a good mother and then you think of her on OITNB and her acting is so opposite of her role on the Fosters. great actress

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by ProfPacker

it was really weird tonight and a testament to her as an actress. I saw Lorraine Touisant on The Fosters and she was so sweet and a good mother and then you think of her on OITNB and her acting is so opposite of her role on the Fosters. great actress

She's an AMAZING actress! I watch The Fosters too and really like her in that. But seriously--she was so believable in OITNB, and anyone that cam make us hate her that much definitely gave an outstanding performance!

[ProfPacker]

I totally agree and I was an episode or two behind in the Fosters (which is a great show, btw) and when I saw she was going to be in it, I was curious if she would make me put away my image of her as Vee and she did. We need to see more of her

[DapperButch]

...part way through I thought the season was going to suck. It ended up not being half bad.

Looking forward to Alex returning and hoping V is dead.


FYI: I have not read any of the posts in this thread

[HoldMeSteady]

Originally Posted by aishah

it's that the first character with no redeeming qualities whatsoever is a black woman

Aishah, you helped me put my finger on one of the things that made me uncomfortable with Vee's arc.

The other thing is that I LOVE LORRAINE TOUSSAINT SO MUCH that it was hard to watch her be unrelentingly and manipulatively evil. I kept wanting some of what she said about loyalty and looking out for her family to be true.

Has anybody seen the old Lifetime T.V. show Any Day Now? She co-starred with Annie Potts as characters who had grown up together in the segregated south. I once heard a description of the series as trying to fix race relationships in the U.S. singlehandedly. I have seen every episode at least once and REALLY WANTED TO BE LORRAINE TOUSSAINT WHEN I GREW UP. Or at least her gorgeous, perfectly put-together, kick-ass lawyer character from the T.V. show.

Now, as a call back to Any Day Now, The Fosters has these two woman playing the mothers of the lesbian couple. You couldn't make me any happier.

I cannot find that t.v. show anywhere. If anybody knows where I could get it, I'd be grateful.

[HoldMeSteady]

Dude, thanks for that back story. The Nigerian guy's story is freaky. I'm very curious to read Alex's book. I read Piper's and she didn't say that Alex was her first. And eventually she did take responsibility for her part in the crime.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by HoldMeSteady

Aishah, you helped me put my finger on one of the things that made me uncomfortable with Vee's arc.

The other thing is that I LOVE LORRAINE TOUSSAINT SO MUCH that it was hard to watch her be unrelentingly and manipulatively evil. I kept wanting some of what she said about loyalty and looking out for her family to be true.

Has anybody seen the old Lifetime T.V. show Any Day Now? She co-starred with Annie Potts as characters who had grown up together in the segregated south. I once heard a description of the series as trying to fix race relationships in the U.S. singlehandedly. I have seen every episode at least once and REALLY WANTED TO BE LORRAINE TOUSSAINT WHEN I GREW UP. Or at least her gorgeous, perfectly put-together, kick-ass lawyer character from the T.V. show.

Now, as a call back to Any Day Now, The Fosters has these two woman playing the mothers of the lesbian couple. You couldn't make me any happier.

I cannot find that t.v. show anywhere. If anybody knows where I could get it, I'd be grateful.

The Fosters. It's on ABCfamily and Jennifer Lopez produces it. I saw the first season. It's good.

I've only seen the first season of OITNB so I don't know what's going on but I figure if people are behind and don't want any spoilers they will just stay away from OITNB threads.

I don't mind, so it doesn't bother me.

*shrug*

[HoldMeSteady]

Originally Posted by Gemme

The Fosters. It's on ABCfamily and Jennifer Lopez produces it. I saw the first season. It's good.

Sorry, I meant Any Day Now. Thanks, though!

[HoldMeSteady]

So it sounds like one thread for Season 3 is the way to go?

[ProfPacker]

btw, I love the Fosters, too

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by HoldMeSteady

So it sounds like one thread for Season 3 is the way to go?

Yeah, I think it seems ultimately easiest for everyone.