What makes me butch?

AtLast · 04-25-2010, 04:46 PM

What defines me as butch really has nothing to do with gender roles or gender in and of itself, concepts of female or male (masculine or feminine). Its about values, attitudes, historical perspectives, and a personal spiritual sense. Feminism, being female and lesbian just fit for me. Just don't for others. Also, my feelings about the range of bujtch identity includes admiration for those that are able to cut through patriarchal concepts and simply be without trying to oppress what butch means to others.

Thinking that my arriving at a peaceful space with butch does have a lot to do with being able to read and sift through all of the discussions that websites like this offer. Sure, there is disagreement among us, but where would we be if we didn’t look at what we all feel define us as butch?

What I have learned by many of you, is that I had to stretch my thinking, do research, and just listen to ideas. I just can’t throw out some arbitrary definition of butch (or femme, for that matter) or put anyone into any particular box. Sometimes this is difficult when I have had some swipes taken at my own brand of butch. I have certainly had defense-mode moments. However, these have become less and less as I just try to understand how really fluid butch (and femme) identity is. No way is butch a one definition fits all concept! And I don't need it to be.

Overall, I have just become more focused on how we can combat the stereotyping of our entire queer community as the outside world views it. Queer for me includes every single identity among us. And there is so much to accomplish out there with things life ENDA, same-sex marriage, homophobia , transphobia, along with all the usual anti-lesbian, gay, bi, BDSM, (what am I forgetting?) bigotry out there.

I don’t care about how someone identifies themselves. I do care that we (me included) have gone at each other in ways that do divide us and just don’t help with the real struggles that we need to deal with like incidences of violence (on-going hate crimes) against our people within the umbrella community of queers.

For me, the best thing to happen within this community has been to be taken to task at times. Hell, I now have connected in genuine ways with folks that I did so much battle with! Why? Because I finally went to the real source of conflict - myself. Sure, I’m going to take issue with posts at times, but not without trying to simply understand the things that are the most difficult for me to.

Be the butch you want to be…………. The

has not served us well.

Rockinonahigh · 04-25-2010, 06:13 PM

Well Id make a mighty ugly femme no doubt about it.Im who I am by looks and actions,I dont have to prove a thing to anyone at any time,I shure dont need a label put on me by anyone..if its not your cup of tea dont pick it up.

Darth Denkay · 04-25-2010, 09:32 PM

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

Corkey · 04-25-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

What makes a human, human.

Down2marsboi · 04-26-2010, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

Yes, I AGREE that ones BUTCH SELF is not only EMcompassed by CHARACTERISTICS but most IMPORTANTLY by ones OWN sense of butchness...your INTERNAL ESSENCE meter so to SPEAK. I FEEL that characteristics BECOME STEROTYPES when people start to BELIEVE that you are a way SIMPLY become you possess a characteric that COMMONLY is associated with a way of BEING. Butchness to me is INTERNAL...Masculinity, Crewcuts, Male SWAGGER, jeans, aggression, etc...are some characterisics usually associated with Butchness from ole school means...this is what the WORLD saw as being a DIfferent essence, back in the day and has STUCK...as people who SELF PROCLAIM as being butch...and all the different energies and appearance become more PREVALENT...then to SHALL the steroyypes I think BEGAN to FALL.

Beau · 04-26-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two?

I am sick to death of gender identity discussions, but your question is salient and worth considering.

My answer:
Stereotypes begin at the moment a person's perceptions, narrow-mindedness, or ignorance is used to define others without the inclusion of the possibilities, beliefs, or experiences that supersede such definitions.

Queerasfck · 04-26-2010, 04:31 PM

I think it's my deodorant.

AtLast · 04-26-2010, 05:22 PM

Take a look at these definitions of the term butch....

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/butch

Interesting in terms of the discussion, especially stereotyping... There has to be other definitions from a queer perspective somewhere.... ????

apretty · 04-26-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

I think it's my deodorant.

old spice swagger?

Mister Bent · 04-26-2010, 07:56 PM

I only came in here to see what makes apretty butch.

AtLast · 04-26-2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apretty

old spice swagger?

ROTFL.... gotta get some of that. I'd probably sneeze just like I do with most scents.. Damn, I never have any fun! PHOOEY!!!

Gemme · 04-26-2010, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

...Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity?

...Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

To me, masculinity and femininity are presentations, or representations, of the same energy, but differently.

I know...clear as mud.

Identical twins. Same appearance but often VERY different personalities. Butch and femme are like identical twins for me. Same energy, split equally and presented differently.

Stereotypes exist because of the same characteristics being shown, over and over again. Often, they are one and the same. The icky part kicks in when the stereotype becomes a caricature.

Rockinonahigh · 04-26-2010, 09:00 AM

To shave or NOT..For me not shaveing has come frome two places,one was an act of rebelion that I wasnt a girlie girl and hated shaveing anyway..and two..over the years it became less important to me to do so.I have a somewhat fuzzy upper lip right alone with every other women in my family cause its comes with the genetics of our family,funny thing is that several of my cousins who are the super femme type have it way worse than me.Corse tthey have had them removed one way or the other but im to chicken for electroisis to do that so onece in a while I shave it off if it gets ugly.
I to have been very active in sports and my body type is like a weight lifter so for the most part is still ok just run to some flab cause of a back/neck injury wich I will have fixed as much as possable this year,finaly I got an appointment with orthopedics at LSU hospital to check it out and then find the best way to go with it.I cant wait to feel good again and be able to hit the work outs like i should.

Kobi · 04-26-2010, 10:23 AM

Bar code on butt.

Sorry, am having an irreverent day.

AtLast · 04-26-2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

Bar code on butt.

Sorry, am having an irreverent day.

ROLF .... Did it hurt?

04-25-2010, 09:32 PM	#3
Darth Denkay Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: I'm good with whatever Relationship Status: in love and loved Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Tennessee (Memphis, from Chattanooga) Posts: 315 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 456 Thanked 463 Times in 150 Posts Rep Power: 891936	Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence. I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense? __________________ Darth

04-26-2010, 04:31 PM	#7
Queerasfck Senior Member How Do You Identify?: still ballin' Relationship Status: Triple X Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: west side Posts: 2,544 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,716 Thanked 6,488 Times in 1,638 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	I think it's my deodorant. __________________ http://www.advertisingarchives.co.uk...28750fb328.jpg

04-26-2010, 07:56 PM	#10
Mister Bent Senior Member How Do You Identify?: . Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: . Posts: 2,905 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,151 Thanked 5,825 Times in 1,722 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	disappointed! I only came in here to see what makes apretty butch. __________________ Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken

04-26-2010, 10:23 AM	#14
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,617 Times in 7,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	What makes me butch..... Bar code on butt. Sorry, am having an irreverent day. __________________

04-25-2010, 04:46 PM	#1
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,827 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	What defines me as butch really has nothing to do with gender roles or gender in and of itself, concepts of female or male (masculine or feminine). Its about values, attitudes, historical perspectives, and a personal spiritual sense. Feminism, being female and lesbian just fit for me. Just don't for others. Also, my feelings about the range of bujtch identity includes admiration for those that are able to cut through patriarchal concepts and simply be without trying to oppress what butch means to others. Thinking that my arriving at a peaceful space with butch does have a lot to do with being able to read and sift through all of the discussions that websites like this offer. Sure, there is disagreement among us, but where would we be if we didn’t look at what we all feel define us as butch? What I have learned by many of you, is that I had to stretch my thinking, do research, and *just listen* to ideas. I just can’t throw out some arbitrary definition of butch (or femme, for that matter) or put anyone into any particular box. Sometimes this is difficult when I have had some swipes taken at my own brand of butch. I have certainly had defense-mode moments. However, these have become less and less as I just try to understand how really fluid butch (and femme) identity is. No way is butch a one definition fits all concept! And I don't need it to be. Overall, I have just become more focused on how we can combat the stereotyping of our entire queer community as the outside world views it. Queer for me includes every single identity among us. And there is so much to accomplish out there with things life ENDA, same-sex marriage, homophobia , transphobia, along with all the usual anti-lesbian, gay, bi, BDSM, (what am I forgetting?) bigotry out there. I don’t care about how someone identifies themselves. I do care that we (me included) have gone at each other in ways that do divide us and just don’t help with the real struggles that we need to deal with like incidences of violence (on-going hate crimes) against our people within the umbrella community of queers. For me, the best thing to happen within this community has been to be taken to task at times. Hell, I now have connected in genuine ways with folks that I did so much battle with! Why? Because I finally went to the real source of conflict - myself. Sure, I’m going to take issue with posts at times, but not without trying to simply understand the things that are the most difficult for me to. Be the butch you want to be…………. The has not served us well.

04-25-2010, 06:13 PM	#2
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,933 Times in 3,938 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Well Id make a mighty ugly femme no doubt about it.Im who I am by looks and actions,I dont have to prove a thing to anyone at any time,I shure dont need a label put on me by anyone..if its not your cup of tea dont pick it up.

04-26-2010, 05:22 PM	#8
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,827 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Take a look at these definitions of the term butch.... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/butch Interesting in terms of the discussion, especially stereotyping... There has to be other definitions from a queer perspective somewhere.... ????

04-26-2010, 09:00 AM	#13
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,933 Times in 3,938 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	To shave or NOT..For me not shaveing has come frome two places,one was an act of rebelion that I wasnt a girlie girl and hated shaveing anyway..and two..over the years it became less important to me to do so.I have a somewhat fuzzy upper lip right alone with every other women in my family cause its comes with the genetics of our family,funny thing is that several of my cousins who are the super femme type have it way worse than me.Corse tthey have had them removed one way or the other but im to chicken for electroisis to do that so onece in a while I shave it off if it gets ugly. I to have been very active in sports and my body type is like a weight lifter so for the most part is still ok just run to some flab cause of a back/neck injury wich I will have fixed as much as possable this year,finaly I got an appointment with orthopedics at LSU hospital to check it out and then find the best way to go with it.I cant wait to feel good again and be able to hit the work outs like i should.