Lesbian Couple "Looks into Transgender" as a Loophole to Get Married

[dykeumentary]

I prefer to think of this situation as exposing the ridiculous state of current humankind.

There is nothing "normal" about marriage. It is a way of organizing groups of people into taxable pairings, and creating children that will be socialized correctly into the stare's system. Everyone knows that people will love whom they want to love. Crazy ideas of a peron's time in history dictate how the groups are arranged. (Old Testament, anyone???)
It's also been firmly established that the idea of a binary gender is also in the service of oppression. People have always and always will express their personality in the way that is true and real for them --UNLESS that expression is interrupted by systems of control that enforce the rules of their community (in the case of trans people, by killing them). (Multilating intersex babies, included).

So if two people want to live/love- I say GO FOR IT. Want to get married? Sit in a sweat lodge? Have a tea ceremony? That's not my business.
Marriage is a cultural/religious event - like first communion. It's just that the State awards goodies to people who do it- it has nothing to do with anything natural or biological.

The State also awards goodies who play nice with their fantasy that there being only 2 ways of expressing our bodies's truth.
Transsexual and transgender people have always and will always exist. Trans people are natural. The culture we live in now - like most before now - make laws and medical standards that want to hurt trans people- THAT is UNNATURAL.
I prefer to fight the systems that have the power to dimish trans people's life chances. I won't try to squeeze into to somebody else's rituals, nor will I support preposterous ideas of only "coupled relationships" being valid , nor will I promote any gender rigidity, even within one person's life.

[BullDog]

I of course don't know Jacki, but there are many, many butches who would love to have chest surgery who do not identify as transgender (including myself), so that part of it doesn't strike me as a tremendous sacrifice.

The change in legal status to male could have some advantages- including a legal heterosexual marriage- but I really wonder if s/he has really thought through all of the legal and social consequences of changing her sex and being viewed by others as transgender/transsexed. There doesn't seem to be any indication of it in the video, but all it is is a short clip.

Christine seems to be a bit of a media creation- it just seems a bit odd, but I suppose Oprah does follow ups and she really did have a double coming out as gay with her ex husband and is now married to a woman who transitioned.

This could be viewed as an affront to same sex marriage as much as it is to transgender, so I do find the responses here to be interesting.

I am not offended either way, I just hope they really thought this through. From what little I saw, I do have my doubts that they did, but I certainly wish them the best. Love is love.

I too think it is the institution of marriage- and who qualifies for a legal marriage and who doesn't- that is the real issue to be concerned about.

[dykeumentary]

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

Please lets not use expressions like "having a screw loose" or "ordering a psych consult" when we mean to say that we don't agree/understand someone's decision.
The mental health industrial complex has been used as a weapon against GLBT and gender-noncomforming people for years. The stigma of "being crazy" also keeps people who need mental health care from getting it.

Thanks! Now back to lively debate!

[vagina]

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by vagina

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

How does this describe the transgender community?

[Words]

Originally Posted by vagina

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

I think you made your views on the transgendered community perfectly clear when you first joined. I find it sad that they haven't changed, sadder still that, in spite of having been around for some time now, you still can't see - don't care? - just how offensive the way in which you express those views actually is.

[aishah]

i can see all sides of this - i think the arguments for why this may be deeper than it initially appears are pretty compelling.

that said, i know of transfolks who've faced charges of fraud in certain areas of the country for legitimately having gender identity disorder, transitioning, and then marrying someone under the law, without any discussion of doing it for the "loophole," just straight up fraud even though their gender was changed on their identity documents.

as much drama has been caused for people who definitely identify as trans and who medically transition and then choose to get married, it makes me wonder if this couple aren't opening themselves up even moreso to potential charges of fraud? the state has no problem getting into folks' marriages where this is concerned. people get charged with marriage fraud for this, for marrying for immigration reasons, etc. i'm afraid i find the legal implications of this more disturbing than the relational ones.

i also agree with words and dykeumentary who've pointed out that regardless of whether one agrees with the actions, what's really at fault here is a state and a social system that defines marriage in such a fucked up, narrow way as to even make this situation possible.

(also thanks dykeumentary for putting words to the ableism of casual comments about people's mental health states. it upset me too.)

[Kobi]

aishah raises an important point. The issues are deeper and more complex.

But it behooves us to look at the larger picture as well.

I checked various news sources on this story. The majority did not affix a label to this couple. They were simply referred to as a couple....not a lesbian couple, not a same sex couple, just a couple.

This is huge.

We have been trained to understand the word "loophole" as meaning something bad, something nefarious, something exploitative.

Using something that exists in a way different from what was originally intended is not a bad thing.

Remember, it was a "loophole" in the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts that spurred gay marriage to a reality in this country.

Some might even say it was a "loophole" for people with the breast cancer gene to have their top surgery covered by insurance under the guise of preventative health.

Looking at something with a fresh set of eyes has led to many positive changes.

It also is imperative for us to remember that even tho we use an umbrella to describe ourselves, the rain doesnt effect us all equally.

Like it or not, the reality is, in a predominately hetero appearing society, regardless of how we get there, male-female couplings lead to instantaneous rights and privileges.

Same sex couples have made inroads but we do not have the same rights and privileges across the board. We still face an uphill battle for equity on local, state, and federal levels.

Equity will come when marriage is just marriage. As long as a distinction is made for same sex or gay marriage, there will be inequality. On the most basic of levels, do bakeries refuse to make wedding cakes for couples they perceive to be hetero?

Because of our differences we might have the need to pull this apart, and to analyze it based on our own political leanings and interests. Perfectly understandable cuz it does mean something different to different groups overall.

Yet, I havent seen anything in these stories about this couple that says they were disingenuous to their authentic selves. That says a lot to me.

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by vagina

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

I know Linus already asked but this post really has me confused so could you please clarify on this statement? I'd greatly appreciate it.


Thanks,
Brute.

[SirenManda]

Originally Posted by vagina

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

Where I agree with many points listed, I can't understand how one persons actions speak for a entire community. People have their own thoughts and opinions, two people can walk the same path but have different experiences.


The problem is this couple was on Oprah, therefor has some pop culture impressions that can be long lasting on those who blindly listen/watch tv shows without question (remember when Oprah went off about beef and got sued?) which happens more than we'd like to think. Does Chaz Bono speak for every transgender individual? Of coarse not. But many will view one famous persons journey as a format for many others. Being transgender isn't a choice, I don't know anyone who ever felt like transitioning wasn't saving their life.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by MandaGlamour

Where I agree with many points listed, I can't understand how one persons actions speak for a entire community. People have their own thoughts and opinions, two people can walk the same path but have different experiences.


The problem is this couple was on Oprah, therefor has some pop culture impressions that can be long lasting on those who blindly listen/watch tv shows without question (remember when Oprah went off about beef and got sued?) which happens more than we'd like to think. Does Chaz Bono speak for every transgender individual? Of coarse not. But many will view one famous persons journey as a format for many others. Being transgender isn't a choice, I don't know anyone who ever felt like transitioning wasn't saving their life.

I don't think we should assume that people who transition are "at the end of their rope", so to speak. That can be true in some cases, but not all.

I am considering taking hormones to masculinize. It isn't a matter of life and death for me.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

Please lets not use expressions like "having a screw loose" or "ordering a psych consult" when we mean to say that we don't agree/understand someone's decision.
The mental health industrial complex has been used as a weapon against GLBT and gender-noncomforming people for years. The stigma of "being crazy" also keeps people who need mental health care from getting it.

Thanks! Now back to lively debate!

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

I'm speaking as a person who had an involuntary inpatient hospitalization to treat what the doctors saw as gender issues, I'm speaking as a niece of a man who was forced to undergo shock therapy treatments to "cure" his homosexuality, I'm speaking as a friend of a 25 year-old lesbian who killed herself when she need needed help, but was too embarassed to get it.

Maybe I should have just saiid "holy shit- that's offensive!" but I tried to be nice.
Is the better response to flag a post? I don't know.

.

Originally Posted by aishah

(also thanks dykeumentary for putting words to the ableism of casual comments about people's mental health states. it upset me too.)

I apologize if my words genuinely offended anyone.

However.....

I say this as someone who's mother suffered from paranoid schizophrenia for decades and did things like drag me out of grade school to hitchhike halfway across the country to go meet the president, which put us both in traumatic and dangerous situations and I wound up being held back due to the amount of time I was kept out of school. I've personally dealt with seasonal depression as well.

I think it's safe to say that most people have been touched by mental health issues in one form or another and some of us, like Anya and Dapper, actually work in the profession.

That said, this offended me.

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

You have no idea what I want and to insinuate that I'm a bad person because I said 'has a screw loose' feels like a shaming attempt.

Sorry.

I have no shame.

Fail.

I stand by my previous post. I certainly admit I could have used different verbiage, though.

[aishah]

forgive me if i misunderstood what anyone meant by those comments. i certainly don't think anyone is a bad person and i don't want to shame anyone into talking a certain way. just was expressing my own gratitude at the questioning of this very common reaction to attribute things we don't like/agree with to mental illness. i personally find this language to be ableist and upsetting. there are other ways of expressing disbelief, frustration, shock, lack of ability to comprehend why someone would do this, etc. than to attribute it to mental illness. it does a disservice to people with actual mental health issues and it does a disservice to the people you're talking about when we frankly don't know whether or not they have mental health issues.

edited/tl;dr -- people see things they think are bad or wrong. when people label those things as "crazy," it bothers me similarly to how it bothers me when people label bad or wrong or ridiculous or stupid or whatever things as "gay" or anything else. because i'm crazy and i resent the association of mental health with bad/wrong/ridiculous, as it perpetuates stigma. it also just doesn't make sense to me, as in it doesn't seem to be a relevant descriptor of the situation.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Gemme

You have no idea what I want and to insinuate that I'm a bad person because I said 'has a screw loose' feels like a shaming attempt.

Sorry.

I have no shame.

Fail.

GEMME by quoting what I wrote so completely, your post feels like you are being negative to me specifically. I wasn't being specifically negative to you.

I posted what I did because I know that many people read what's here. I posted what I did because it was an opportunity to talk about how people who don't even intend to be hurtful get pulled into mental health oppression.

It was relevant to this thread not only because we have a responsibility to other BFP posters to interrupt hurtful language, but also because Oprah probably didn't mean to be hurtful to anybody, yet (as you pointed out) many trans people are/were/could be harmed by this segment on her show. This is a thread about how out actions impact others.

So since you posted to me personally, here is my personal response back to you:

You wrote about your experience with your mom and I feel genuine compassion for you, that must have been so difficult.
Sadly though, our experiences of being hurt by someone with mental health issues does not give you or anyone permission to say things like "there's a screw loose" -- that's a bad way to say you don't agree. If you are talking about somieone's mental condition, and if you ARE a psychiatrist, you wouldn't have permission to talk about their condition here anyway.
An experience of being hurt by someone with a broken leg doesn't give you permission to say "that's so lame." An experience of being hurt by someone with cognitive delays doesn't give you permission to say "that's so retarded." An experience of being treated badly by a poor person doesn't give you permission to say "That's ghetto" The list goes on.

It's clear from your total number of posts that you care about this site. I don't know you, nor do I find sport in shaming anyone.
You and I both feel the responsibility to talk about everyday oppression, and our part in interrupting it -That's why we both post in threads like this.

[GraffitiBoi]

Originally Posted by vagina

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Oprah segment or to this discussion in general. I do know, as a transgender person, that the story on Oprah does not define me, my trans friends, our community, or our trans movement in which we fight endlessly for equal rights and acceptance.

*****

I do believe that the Oprah show portrayed that couple's situation in an over-simplified manner and probably left a lot of material on the cutting room floor. Regardless of how or why this couple came to their decision, I'm sure it was not done lightly or without a lot of thought and discussion on the pros and cons. No matter the reason for transition, it is a long process that cannot be decided in one fleeting moment, no matter who you are.

Do I think the Oprah story and that couple's situation casts a favorable light on transition and trans* people? No. But that is due to my own personal opinions and beliefs. No matter my thoughts and feelings, that was their issue and their decision to make, and it is none of my business to judge or care why. They did what they thought they needed to do. They aren't hurting me or interfering in my life.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by GraffitiBoi

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Oprah segment or to this discussion in general. I do know, as a transgender person, that the story on Oprah does not define me, my trans friends, our community, or our trans movement in which we fight endlessly for equal rights and acceptance.

*****

I do believe that the Oprah show portrayed that couple's situation in an over-simplified manner and probably left a lot of material on the cutting room floor. Regardless of how or why this couple came to their decision, I'm sure it was not done lightly or without a lot of thought and discussion on the pros and cons. No matter the reason for transition, it is a long process that cannot be decided in one fleeting moment, no matter who you are.

Do I think the Oprah story and that couple's situation casts a favorable light on transition and trans* people? No. But that is due to my own personal opinions and beliefs. No matter my thoughts and feelings, that was their issue and their decision to make, and it is none of my business to judge or care why. They did what they thought they needed to do. They aren't hurting me or interfering in my life.

I think that's half the problem with media in general. The original story and all its nuances gets condensed into a 30-second to 3-minute sound byte that wraps up the entire story (according to broadcasting company) and leaves a lot of people shaking their heads in confusion, or worse, getting the wrong idea and grabbing their pitchforks.

I didn't mean to grab mine but it wasn't the couple I was going after. For me, it was the way their story was represented. It was the wording and seeming-suggestion that it's just so easy to transition and everybody who identifies as queer should do it if they want to legally marry.

That might not have been their intention at all. Nonetheless, it caused a visceral reaction.

[imperfect_cupcake]

That's the thing. The media. If anyone has ever been covered by the media they chop it up and re-gurge for easy digestion. I have had friends who have had their stories covered by The Medja and they completely misrepresented them. Utterly. Sex worker mates trying to be public with pro-sexworker stories get completely mangled. A friend of mine decided to help pay for couples therapy with her husband by volunteering herself to be covered in a story and the media blitz around certain type of couples therapy pretty much broke them up for four months because of the stress of mis representation. You can be interviewed in a really positive way and then have 85% on the editing room floor and the finished product makes you look like a complete cheese todger.

I wouldn't trust an Oprah show for it's sound journalism! That's bonkers.

It's the media circus and depiction I think is the wank heads in this story.

I just googled "marriage transgender loophole" in google. It seems the media likes to call it this from 2010-2014, just on the first page of searching.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

Please lets not use expressions like "having a screw loose" or "ordering a psych consult" when we mean to say that we don't agree/understand someone's decision.
The mental health industrial complex has been used as a weapon against GLBT and gender-noncomforming people for years. The stigma of "being crazy" also keeps people who need mental health care from getting it.

Thanks! Now back to lively debate!

Just checking, are you moderating?

[Corkey]

I'm wondering if folks are gate keeping. Personally I will never make the transition, the physical for me does not make the person (gender) I am. I am Transgender, not Transexual. I do think it was expedient for Jacki to further their relationship. That isn't a judgement on if Jacki is TG or not. Carpe Diem may be at play here. Love is all that matters and it is time we stop making people jump through hoops just so they can marry the person they love. Then everyone would be able just to be themselves without society getting say in their lives.

.10.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I'm wondering if folks are gate keeping. Personally I will never make the transition, the physical for me does not make the person (gender) I am. I am Transgender, not Transexual.

Thanks. I was reading this thinking... Hang on... Everyone is talking about Transexual transition, not being transgendered.... Transgender... You can be female and just not a woman. And I knew plenty of trans*gender* in the UK who still ID'd as dyke as a secondary ID.

It actually makes my left eye twitch when people conflate the two as being the same.