Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess it depends on what one is looking for.

For me, they have to be kinky and dominant, within three hours drive, open minded, wanting a primary partner, same sense of humour, have their shit sorted, sane, not an alcoholic or smoking pot daily, more intelligent than most and really good at communication.

"Easy" is lower on my list. I've dated 10 people in the last 3 years. All of them have been problematic in ways like turning out to be a binge drinker, or winds up having a fairly crippling anxiety disorder that they didn't mention, or wants me to support them, or....

So when I meet someone local, my age range, very intelligent, attractive, funny, dominant, understands a lot of stuff without having to explain myself too much, isnt a binge drinker, has her shit sorted, and is really kind and generous - I'd like to think I can take some of her surface values into consideration without dismissing her or them, off hand. If I'm actually open for something long term to happen. Im not 35 anymore and I'm not in London.
There isn't a dirth of sane and sorted single local butches wanting to play me Mona Lisa on the Ukelele and see how it goes. In fact, I don't know of any.

So I have to be flexible *somewhere* if I want to try and do things differently.

I was just wondering if there are others other there who are flexible to a degree IF they know CONTEXT or if they respond to situations by a set of rules they adhere to.


To be to the point.

I'm suspecting that most people run on a set of rules. Or perhaps flexibility within those rules. But usually people don't deviate off a set of rules unless they have context and reason. Which is why I gave an annoyingly long post.

I'm also used to having longer posts as I'm one of those annoying fuckers that partook in the theory threads. I'm blunt, but I'm totally a context whore. Context can change the colour of a picture completely.

Apologies for my details. I'm not good at fluffy threads. I'm pretty damn cerebral.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Or maybe the answer is "I dunno, I dont think about it"

Which is also a valid response.

[Ginger]

I feel totally confused by this thread and I'm too impatient to read more carefully so that's all on me.

That said, I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.

I'm monogamous and usually start having sex before I know someone very well. That hasn't worked well for me, so I'm changing my strategy.

Good luck, everyone!

[Gráinne]

I was wondering why this was addressed to butches-is it because they are more traditionally the "pursuer" in dating/courting?

While I don't feel bound by rigid "rules", it just comes down to: If someone is moving at a far different speed with regards to dating/courting/intimacy than I am, chances are we're not a good pairing anyway and I move on. And yes, the "click" of connection or recognition can happen, maddeningly, even when compatibility isn't there. That's why, for me personally, I don't want to get physically vulnerable until I know that person much better.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Grianne, I actually wanted to hear what butches because they tend to be more conservative (in my expereince only, and this IS NOT a blanket statement, just a general trend I've noticed) around sex - perhaps because of the whole gender thing requiring greater vulnerability during sex? Who knows. It's anecdotal anyway.

And because I just wanted to.

[imperfect_cupcake]

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.

Please ignore if it's confusing and muddled and too long.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

For those who are confused, I apologise. I like context heavy, meaty discussions with lots of things to think about in it. I'm not really a "here's a brief question, Gimmie your drive by answer" kinda thread gal. In 2010 these kinds of threads were common and why I kept going to forums. I'm not a simple question/simple answer kind of gal. I like deconstruction and examination. Apologies. Perhaps this kind of discussion is really out of place, then.

Please ignore if it's confusing and muddled and too long.

IMHO there are not enough meaty discussions. This kind of discussion is not out of place. Please continue to put thought-provoking questions out "there" .

[The_Lady_Snow]

Cupcake,

Do you feel this is a Butch behavior more than it is a Femme behavior? Are butches more likely to jump into monogamy than Femme's?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Ginger

That said, I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.


Good luck, everyone!

Ding! That's it entirely. Sometimes that isn't about "speed" as some people commit to monogamy easily and casually and they don't mean it to be as serious as *I* see it when the word monogamy gets whipped out.

If I am actually jiving with someone on all others levels, then this problem is something I personally am fine with questioning intent over and coming to a deeper understanding.

But I'm asking others what they think about
"People commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum" and how they approach a bump in it.

[Candelion]

Originally Posted by Ginger

I think I'm hearing that people commit to monogamy at different points in the continuum of getting close, and sometimes that is problematic.

This was so beautifully worded. Sometimes cerebral and erudite thinking comes in a succinct format. Verbosity isn't always the best way to go.

Interesting thread, imperfect_cupcake!

[imperfect_cupcake]

You should see my 16 page emails.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Candelion

This was so beautifully worded. Sometimes cerebral and erudite thinking comes in a succinct format. Verbosity isn't always the best way to go.

Interesting thread, imperfect_cupcake!

Glad you think it's interesting

So then what would you do if you ran into that problem that ginger stated?

[Candelion]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Glad you think it's interesting

So then what would you do if you ran into that problem that ginger stated?

I didn't previously answer your question because you had specifically directed it to butches, but since you have asked me specifically...

For me, if the chemistry (physical, mental, and emotional) is strong enough, I don't have a problem committing to exclusivity. In fact, if I feel a strong connection with someone, there is no other option for me but to be exclusive. Exclusivity doesn't mean I am committing to a life-long pairing, but it does mean I am focusing my attention exclusively on that one special person in order to build on that initial chemistry and to see if the attraction grows into a strong bond that will lead to a long term commitment. For me, if both parties are not interested in seriously exploring their attraction to each other, the chemistry just isn't strong enough to continue. In other words, if the difference in the way in which we approach budding relationships is so vastly different, I would take it as a sign to move on. I just don't think there would be any strategies to bridge that kind of a gap.


*When I use the term exclusivity, it means I am exclusive with my romantic attentions. This does not mean I neglect my career, friends, or other interests.

[candy_coated_bitch]

I am 37 years old and a Queer Femme.

I like to take things VERY slowly when dating/getting to know a new person. I'm like a skittish horse and it's very easy to make the wrong move with me if I am approached too quickly. I want a monogamous primary partner, I want to share my life with someone. This is something I WANT in life. (I have not always been in a place to attempt a relationship, but it is something I have always ultimately wanted.) I do well with monogamy, and when I feel I have had enough time to get to know someone and our dynamic and workings together I have no problem committing fully. Until I have had enough time, though, I am a total commitment-phobe and will run to the nearest exist if I feel pressured to make some kind of deep commitment quickly.

However--butches/guys (and I suspect people in general, but that's my dating pool so that's what I'm commenting on) usually want to move way more quickly than I do. I like to take my time to get to know someone and feel it takes a number of months to get a good sense of a person. If I feel someone wants some kind of commitment from me too soon I freak the fuck out. I will usually say something in a nice way that basically means you need to chill the fuck out or I'm gonna cut and run. And if someone can't respect my need to take things slow before a commitment is made I *WILL* cut and run.

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

For me, it's not about feeling shackled in a sexual manner, it's not a feeling I experience in my body--but rather more in my emotional center. I have only in one period of time in my history where I have had more than one sexual partner, and I'm very selective with whom I have sex, and I don't really enjoy sex unless I know someone a bit. However, I feel like somehow most people need to get some perspective that there's something between completely casual sex and we've-had-sex-once-and-we're-married-for-life. Phew! I don't generally have too many issues feeling sexually trapped, but I do have issues feeling emotionally trapped. But the sex and the feels get messy and overlap so the sex part is often involved. I don't like feeling emotionally pinned down into something before I am ready and I just simply can't make it work if a butch does not respect that.

So, I dunno. I feel like I come at this from a similar perspective as you, imperfect_cupcake. I'm not a butch and I also need to take dating/relationships on the slower side of things and often feel like potential partners just don't get it. Sometimes no matter how much chemistry there is, two people may just not be going in the same direction or want the same type of relationship. And there's not much that can be done about that. BUT, if two people are going in the same direction and want the same type of relationship (like say ultimately being in a monogamous relationship) and one of them needs more time to be comfortable committing to that, then that seems workable to me if the other person is willing to be patient. I have definitely been in situations where people CANNOT be patient, though. That also does tell me a lot because it's about my emotional boundaries and if they can't respect them off the bat then we have problems.

[The_Lady_Snow]

45 year old Leather Queer Femme Dom/Daddy

I too find that if I date outside of my kink circles or kink oriented people, I will tend to feel trapped, caged, and sufficated and I tend to feel this way with all gender types.. I have felt it while dating feminine folks, masculine folks.. People who aren't into the kink dynamic who I have tried to date have a tendency to get all like this is my property kinda like.. That kinda shit makes me run for the hills, it's not natural, it's scary, and it feels unhealthy to me... I have always felt this way from my 20's to now for some weird odd reason people do not know how to DATE, they want you (general) to commit to a ridiculous standard of monogamy that I don't even expect when IN A RELATIONSHIP.. I don't get it. I rarely if ever have this problem in my D/s-M/s dynamics, the boundaries there seem to be clear and no one likes to cross the lines and I find that interesting... Dating in itself for *me* has changed because of the whole you are MINE thing. Dating is when people seek and get to know more than one person for long periods of time, short periods of time.. It doesn't mean commitment, it doesn't mean you are property, it doesn't give anyone the right to expect monogamy or any other kind of commitment that keeps you (general) or them from seeking others. I don't know where dating evolved into forever.. That's just crazy to me and it's not really a butch.guy thing it's an every gender thang. I find it to be telling and it shows that there is A LOT of insecurity going on if this is happening when you are JUST simply just dating...


Add sex to the mix and people go nutso, next thing you know they are claiming shit like *that's my pussy* and not in that kinky, hot sexy, you're all up in some pussy and you are saying that to one another cause you are getting one another wet/hard.. Why sex changes things into some weird it's "Mine" Nemo seagull mentality I will never ever understand, and frankly want no part of!!!


ETA


Dapper in regards to the age question... I don't have an age restriction, until I do and here is what I have found from my own personal experience..

Cougar relationships (btw I hate that terminology because it deems women as some kind of dangeroud predator) are frowned upon by society and that leaks into our queer stuff.. I find that if I have a young stud at my side or even serving me then I am a predatory, innocent robbing flipper. If a peer be they Dom or not does it then they are Daddy, Lord and Savior...

Pretty fucking hypocritical if you ask me..

[candy_coated_bitch]

Oh, Snow--those are good points! And while I am more monogamously inclined sexually, I am not so much as a Domme when it comes to play. And I have found trying to to date outside of kink circles WAY more often creates that proprietary phenomenon where someone thinks that they have some sort of claim on me. Sometimes I think kink is easier because boundaries and expectations are more explicitly stated early on. That is my experience anyhow.

ETA: I have almost exclusively dated older butches/guys--sometimes a large age difference. I've never though about what this means as far as dating styles related to age...

Also--I have been the way I am in regards to my dating style since I started dating.

[NitroChrys_Butch]

So here is the question - if you met someone that you had interest in - that you admire, respect, desire and have that fire of "know what you want" for - who dosen't do courting (monogamous only seeing each other) right away, but only does dating with no exclusivity or promises until they know you much better, before they even *think* of courting, even if they agree there is a good click, what would you do? Every woman I have ever dated I felt that way towards. There was something and there was interesting and respect but I certainly didn't expect her to drop any other people she was seeing and exclusively date Me.

Would you push her to commit? Give her an ultimatum? Try to do things a new way? Walk away? Try to reach a middle ground? I would not push her to commit. It would take more than a few dates to get to that point. I played the field often and I let every woman know that I was dating other people Right out in the open. I see other people. This honestly gave them the freedom to walk away from Me or to be alright with that and expect Me the same freedom to see other people. I would never walk away. Dating allows two people to develop something if something is there and if it is meant to be deepen the relationship by becoming exclusive.

You've been on two or three dates with them, say, and spend time sending each other emails and call each other for long chats a twice a week. You want monogamy, but she doesn't feel she knows you well enough to make that call and probably won't for three or four months, at least. Your metaphorical balls are turning blue and going to drop off because you are discussing sex, quite openly and I'm great detail, it's an important topic to her. You really want to have sex. She hesitates about it because she knows that you take sex very seriously, right off the bat. My metaphoric balls wouldn't turn blue. It would be up to Me to be clear in stating that if she doesn't want to commit and be monogamous than she should not expect that of Me while I wait for her to decide. She can take three or four months to decide. These things take time to build on. Trust and commitment don't happen overnight. A foundation of respect has to be laid before either party can be.

She says she doesn't mind if you go on dates and talk to others because she doesn't expect exclusivity at this point in time. She will not be pushed, she's fiery and has excellent boundaries. Her no means absolutely not. But she is kind, generous, sweet, nurturing, honest, and much more vulnerable than she'll let people on to.I would agree to continue dating her because she has all these positive attributes. She can't mind if I date if she isn't willing to commit. And if the day comes when she is, I hope that I will have been smart enough to stick around. [ACTUALLY, THAT WAS MY SCENARIO over two years ago.. now she is My wife.. so I was smart enough not to let her go]

[RockOn]

Mine would not turn blue and drop off ...just be having severe sexual pains regularly I imagine. If I find her extraordinarily special, I can wait. Simple to say, hard to do but I think in the long run it would be best ... I am only speaking for me.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Kelt

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

I think understanding that people have different ideas about what is intimate and what is romantic (like the five love languages test, for example) is a good thing. I like people who like touch and quality time, because I'm good at giving that. I love getting acts of service the most. So fixing my bike will be seen as far more swoony and romantic than a gift or a love poem.

But that's also what dating is for, right? Finding these things out to see if you are suited for a relationship!

Kinda why I like taking things slow in the beginning, to find these things out....!

Both snipped.

I am going to weigh in on the romance thing: I LOVE ROMANCE. I love grand gesture, sweeping, formal romance and I also love the romantic times together being silly and doing little things. Some of the most romantic times in my life happened very spontaneously. You might not deduce from my other posts about having really strong emotional boundaries with people that I love romance, but I do. I love traditional, old school romance. I JUST DON'T LIKE IT IF I DON'T KNOW YOU.

If my partner gives me flowers and takes me out on an expensive date to a fancy restaurant and we dress up and shit, it makes me totally giddy. (Not that we need to do it all the time.) But for a first date? With someone I'm just getting to know? If you show up at my door in a suit with flowers I will be freaked the fuck out. Coffee seems like a more reasonable first date, I'm trying to get to know you kind of thing.

imperfect_cupcake: I'm so glad you brought up the five love languages thing. I found it very enlightening when I found out what my top love languages were, and like to know to know the people I am dating's are. Mine are words of affirmation and gifts, almost in equal measure. I *LOVE* (genuine) compliments and to be fawned all over, and reassurances, and to be told how much someone loves me. I need that. (Again--NOT if I've known you for like two weeks.) The gifts part I used to feel weird about--but I love being given things. It doesn't have to be expensive or even cost any money at all.

I just love physical, tangible tokens that show me someone was thinking of me. That they picked up throughout the day, just because. I love being made things. I'm a very tactile person and I love to hold things and run my hands over them, so getting something like a stone or a shell is always wonderful. I like wacky little gifts. A game. A book. A magazine. Fun stickers, a pen, cute socks, a notebook. Seriously, some of the gifts I've been most pleased with over the years cost like a dollar.

But all things in moderation until I know you. That is the key.

Speaking of which--I WANT A KINDER EGG!!!!! I would totally squee to get ones of those as a gift.

Link to the five love languages test: http://www.5lovelanguages.com/

Not that this whole thread needs to be become about that, but now I am developing a theory about how what a person's love language is might influence how they date and try to get to know people. I have found mostly people do things for others that they would see as loving and would want done for themselves and it doesn't always mean the same thing to another person. Because you're speaking a different language.

Ok, I'm rambling and suspecting I have lost total point of what I am doing in this post but am gonna hit click anyways...

[Cin]

I don't recall ever having rules or a laundry list of expectations for much of anything but certainly not for how I plan to date. I'm not concerned if we are going in the same direction since I'm not heading in any particular direction. I'm mostly meandering about enjoying the view, smelling the flowers that I surely would not pick and bring on any date ever again without thinking long and hard about the possible implications.

I probably could have benefited more in my personal life by having an agenda, not being so directionally challenged and planning ahead. But mostly I just trust my instincts and take everything separately and individually as it occurs, which actually did not work out badly in the end. The one thing I do find important to discover, when getting to know someone and figuring out where they might fit in my life, is if they possess the ability to be intimate. People who make it into my inner circle must be able to both trust and inspire trust. In my experience, intimacy is the mother of trust. And when I talk about trust it really has little to do with whether or not someone is having sex with more than just me.

Regarding the question if I could be monogamous quickly during the dating portion of a relationship, that depends on how quickly and of course how I feel about the person. As long as we didn't just say hello a week ago and as long as I think there may be something there and the person's quick desire for monogamy isn't because they cannot understand the difference between intensity and intimacy, I can go fast. Conversely, as long as a person's desire to go slow doesn't hide an inability to be intimate or vulnerable, I can go slow. What drives someone's actions is more important to me than the actions themselves. So if I perceive the possibility of a relationship with the person then I can go slow or go fast depending on the comfort zone of the other. Again it is important and I can't stress this enough, that the other be able to tell the difference between intimacy and intensity. If you believe your heart will break if you can't have me promise you forever and we just met last week, then your an intensity junkie. I don't need the drama. People who barely know each other cannot possibly have a love story for the ages. Personally I find love at first sight to be an impossible concept. What could conceivably be one's definition of love that simply seeing someone could allow you to be in love. How is that even possible? How can love happen by looking? Hell, I wonder how people can fall in love in 6 months, never mind at first sight.

I don't have deep feelings invested in initial relationships. I have feelings don't get me wrong, but I save my deep forever feelings for deep forever relationships. That means that while I am interested and moved by how you feel if we are in the early stages of a relationship, I am not concerned that I will be made to feel any way because of your influence. I won't feel put upon or forced or used or made to feel something I'm not interested in feeling. That generally opens me up to be free to explore areas or move in directions I might not ordinarily go just to see what it's like or where it leads. My feelings are mostly my own and until someone is a very big part of my life they have little power to effect them. I doubt I would ever feel trapped, at least not for long, because if I felt trapped i would set myself free. And the last thing I would ever want to do is have someone feel trapped or forced into something because of something I need. The need to never do that to anyone would trump any other need.

What I want from a relationship has nothing to do with time or speed or ownership. I can usually tell pretty quickly if someone is going to be able to give me the things I need at some point. I need for the other person to see me. I'm not afraid to show who I am, but the other has to be willing to look. People are often deeply invested in seeing what they want to see in others. I want someone who can see me. I want to feel accepted for who I am. I need to feel a sense of safety, i need to be able to be vulnerable and intimate and to trust the other will honor that. I need to have the other try to give these things back to me to the best of their ability. I need them to trust me enough to show themselves to me. I promise to honor their trust. Ultimately time and speed have little to do with this, except in that people are capable of achieving these things at different rates and to different degrees. And I can wait for you to get there as long as you're willing to try. But ownership never even enters the equation. I don't want to own you and you can't own me. You will just frustrate yourself if you try. You will be very unhappy in a relationship with me if that is what you need. I will feel for you but I am not going to own your issues. I'm like coated in teflon when it comes to stuff like that. You can try to put that stuff on me but it will just slide off. Mostly people with the need to own others or the need for drama and intensity grow weary of me very quickly.

There is nothing wrong with being intense. I'm a very intense person. I'm also very earnest. There is a difference between being intense and using emotional intensity as camouflage to hide the fact that you haven't a clue how to be intimate with another person.