Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

[Kelt]

I think the last few posts pretty much sum up what I was getting at with romance. It's a spectrum from zero to sixty.

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy

When what I'd really be meaning is; I'm showing interest and wanting to make a good impression. (NOT asking for sex or proposing marriage though)

If I'm head over heels I'll fix your car, because like the socks in the night, it's how I show genuine caring.

Princessbelle is right that communication is key because there are so many ways to get things wrong; or right but you just don't know it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Fair enough, kelt - I personally would like someone to show interest by talking to me, telling me stories from their life and making me laugh. And showing interest in my stories. Flowers, to me, on a first date... Trying too hard? Making a formal statement that kind of makes me uncomfortable? I would like to think that before the first date we've had a couple pre-dates (just going for coffee or a beer and nachos) and talking. And perhaps we've had a couple phone calls and email exchanges before a first date. By then, I would like to think, the person has some idea that

A) I'm quite informal and too much formality makes me uncomfortable and stiff and I kind of feel like I'm playing a role rather than being a person. I'd like to think that flowers aren't nessecary to impress me or show interest, and taking me to a fancy restaurant where I can't laugh loud or show you pictures of hilarious dildos on my phone will make me feel out of place.

B) that you feel comfortable taking me to a pub with a good burger, a quiet corner and we talk and laugh for a few hours. Maybe you have bought me a little leggo kit instead of flowers and we can build it at the table. Perhaps we change to go to a different late pub after the dinner and make fun of people's shoes. I'm dressed up nicely.

I like a LOT of conversation and sharing of opinions and stories, so generally people have a pretty good idea of a first date, or they allow me to choose the place. Which I rather like. The second date they usually give me an idea or choice of a couple of things and I pick one. Again it will be informal and a place we can talk. I'm all about the talking. That way we can find out a lot about these things.

I generally don't do "activities" together as in going to the theatre or something until after we've had sex at least once.

But I'll have told someone that too. I come with very open and very straight forwardly stated instructions and I have an excellent customer service centre that fields enquires in great detail. I also come with a sheet of colourful diagrams for assembly.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Fair enough, kelt - I personally would like someone to show interest by talking to me, telling me stories from their life and making me laugh. And showing interest in my stories. Flowers, to me, on a first date... Trying too hard? Making a formal statement that kind of makes me uncomfortable? I would like to think that before the first date we've had a couple pre-dates (just going for coffee or a beer and nachos) and talking. And perhaps we've had a couple phone calls and email exchanges before a first date. By then, I would like to think, the person has some idea that

A) I'm quite informal and too much formality makes me uncomfortable and stiff and I kind of feel like I'm playing a role rather than being a person. I'd like to think that flowers aren't nessecary to impress me or show interest, and taking me to a fancy restaurant where I can't laugh loud or show you pictures of hilarious dildos on my phone will make me feel out of place.

B) that you feel comfortable taking me to a pub with a good burger, a quiet corner and we talk and laugh for a few hours. Maybe you have bought me a little leggo kit instead of flowers and we can build it at the table. Perhaps we change to go to a different late pub after the dinner and make fun of people's shoes. I'm dressed up nicely.

I like a LOT of conversation and sharing of opinions and stories, so generally people have a pretty good idea of a first date, or they allow me to choose the place. Which I rather like. The second date they usually give me an idea or choice of a couple of things and I pick one. Again it will be informal and a place we can talk. I'm all about the talking. That way we can find out a lot about these things.

I generally don't do "activities" together as in going to the theatre or something until after we've had sex at least once.

But I'll have told someone that too. I come with very open and very straight forwardly stated instructions and I have an excellent customer service centre that fields enquires in great detail. I also come with a sheet of colourful diagrams for assembly.

I love the Legos idea! That's a great way to be silly and get to know each other. I agree that it's important to talk before going on a first date especially if I'm picking the place we go. Wouldn't want to bring her to a seafood restaurant if she hates seafood or bring her chocolate if she is allergic.

I'm curious about the no "activities" until after sex? What's that about if you don't mind sharing? Is that a more formal date?

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Kelt

I think the last few posts pretty much sum up what I was getting at with romance. It's a spectrum from zero to sixty.

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy

When what I'd really be meaning is; I'm showing interest and wanting to make a good impression. (NOT asking for sex or proposing marriage though)

If I'm head over heels I'll fix your car, because like the socks in the night, it's how I show genuine caring.

Princessbelle is right that communication is key because there are so many ways to get things wrong; or right but you just don't know it.

Yeah, I'm not big on romance, either. It makes me itchy. When someone brings flowers, especially early in the dating relationship, I sometimes wonder if they're trying to buy me. If I don't wonder about that, I end up feeling nervous that they're too invested too quickly. It's easy to scare me off.

[homoe]

I was raised with manners and common sense. I mean that's just rude to let a door slam in someone's face so I will extent an open door or hold one open to let someone pass through , help on with coats, help or pull out a chair for someone to get into, stuff like that. After reading these posts, I see that might offend some folks?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by homoe

I was raised with manners and common sense. I mean that's just rude to let a door slam in someone's face so I will extent an open door or hold one open to let someone pass through , help on with coats, help or pull out a chair for someone to get into, stuff like that. After reading these posts, I see that might offend some folks?

For me, nope wouldn't offend me. I like that. I don't like someone dressed in a suit, with flowers, calling me ma'am, taking me to a really expensive place, and being really formal type old school.

Like I personally have said, I am old fashioned. But I am also not formal. I feel really awkward putting the things I feel old fashioned about on a board because to me the are quiet, personal things between me and one other person. But carrying my bags is lovely, without making a fuss about it, opening my door, helping me with a coat, paying for a dinner or a night out... I don't really won't to say too much more. That's kind of between me and the other person and it feels really private.

I think things that feel ... They are doing it because I'm a femme, rather than because I'm me and special, feels very... Insert cardboard cut of of femme and insert formula ritual thing here... I'd prefer we get a hang of each other and have personal things for us. Not because I'm a femme and that's what you do for femmes. It feels really ... Insert tab a into slot b show romance in way you show femmes romance. I just feels overly intimate in a fake way. Perhaps more like what gemme is talking about.

Kind of like when servers in a restaurant get cloy (Overly Ingratiating or sentimental) ? I hate an excess of sentiment upfront. It makes me really uncomfortable. I guess I like humour and playfulness and understatement.

Putting it on paper, typing into a post looks hopelessly picky. But in reality it's not. Ive actually been told I'm really easy to talk to and extremely easy company - when someone isn't trying hard to impress me and listens to me instead. And me them.

[homoe]

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by homoe

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person whole day!

It depends on your "love language" thing. Right? I get very uncomfortable with compliments given certain ways. But then I'm not a "words of affirmation" type.

Like for instance, I'm going to be far more endeared and swoony over someone saying "hey gimpy, get your hot arse in the car so I can drive you home, you are giving me a public boner with that slutty limp" with a big grin when I've injured my foot than. "Forsooth, my goddess, your pearlescent toes are wilting and causing the Angels to weep. May I please take your divine splendour home in my humble and unworthy wagon?"

I also prefer "mouthy tart" to "my beauteous wonder of feminine light"

But that's also because I prefer humour and endearment. I feel someone gets me and really likes me and feels comfortable with me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by homoe

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

Depends on how it's given and timing.. Sometimes timing is very important, I get complimenting someone you find attractive or whatever it is you are feeling, that's different than super imposing some weird machismo oh look I am taking time out of my life to let validate you..

That right there, makes me want to throat punch someone, very few people have good game, smoothness or je ne sais qua..

Sometimes people get pissy when you don't acknowledge a what they deem a compliment, it's really hard to explain and I am unsure if this only happens to feminine.female identified folk...

[nycfem]

I'm a 42 year old femme paired with an almost-59 year old butch (17 year age difference). We've been together 10 years, have lived together in small quarters almost that long, and are very happy together. When we first met at a mutual friend's birthday party, we had immediate lust. In two weeks BB was saying hy was in love with me. That sent me into a panic and I broke up repeatedly and dated other people. BB also ultimately wanted monogamy, and I didn't know if that would work for me. BB got sick of the drama from me and decided to stop all contact with me. This was helpful as it gave me time to think about what I wanted over the course of months. I decided that I did want a relationship with BB and announced that I was ready for a real commitment with an eye towards the long-term. BB was like (paraphrasing), "My friends think you're a crazy bitch, but what the hell, you're cute, and I'm still in love with you so let's go for it." I lived up to my promise and both of us feel that all's well that ends well.

BB said hy was totally into monogamy and private kink. I was more into poly and swing kink. BB said that it was fine if we wanted to come up with some kind of compromise, that hy didn't want to stifle my identity and that we could find some kind of arrangement that both of us were comfortable with. Ultimately I just decided to go with the monogamy because it seemed like such a drag to have to process which would have been necessary if we wanted to go with these two different ways of life. It felt like it would be like raising a kid with two different religions, a little complicated and possibly creating a distance between us. The one thing I did negotiate was that I didn't want to drop my flirtatious personality, and that was agreed upon.

We both struggled with how to romance each other. Early on BB bought me some very traditional expensive pieces of jewelry, and it made me very uncomfortable. Besides my HK engagement ring, I didn't want what reminds me of the trappings of traditional cis-het romance. I hate flowers. When you get flowers, you suddenly have work to do (water, a vase, petals dropping as they rot). I don't eat chocolate, and everyone gets me chocolate. It's an easy gift that people give all the time. At least chocolate is easy to regift! I also struggled with how to romance BB. For hys birthday I used to get expensive concert tickets and weekends away for us that I couldn't afford. It was very stressful for me. I didn't share these feelings, and I felt it was what I should do. Luckily out of the blue BB told me that hy didn't need these grand gestures and that small meaningful gestures and even just time together was what mattered. That was a relief.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by homoe

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

True confessions: I'm irrationally upset by compliments. I can usually handle the first one, but each successive compliment makes me progressively more uncomfortable. Excessive compliments would make anyone uncomfortable, but I start feeling weird from compliment #1. I think I feel as if the person complimenting me is just setting both of us for some sort of huge disappointment later. I've gotten much better at graciously accepting a few, but it hasn't been easy. Now I just warn everyone when they're about to exceed their ration for the day/week/month. It's not that I don't want to know if my date finds me attractive. I certainly want that! I just inappropriately get that strange 'uh-oh' feeling whenever I get complimented.

I'm a 52 y/o femme, by the way. I'm also non-monogamous, and unlike the vast majority of posters here, I don't see monogamy as an eventuality once I start getting serious about someone. I expect to remain some kind of non-monogamous throughout my committed relationship(s).

[Bèsame*]

Originally Posted by homoe

I want to expand on the compliment factor because I'm a very curious person in general. Are femmes suspicious when a butch gives them compliment? I mean do you think a butch has an ultra motive if they do or are you more inclined to just accept the compliment at face value? The way I've always looked upon compliments are they cost nothing to give, and can make a person's whole day!

Its all about timing and whether or not it's sincere. I can usually tell, if it's about the moment, something I'm wearing or was brought up in conversation. It's obvious if you pulled that compliment from out of no where. There is no face value, perhaps an ulterior motive would be suspected. But again, all about timing.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Bèsame*

Its all about timing and whether or not it's sincere. I can usually tell, if it's about the moment, something I'm wearing or was brought up in conversation. It's obvious if you pulled that compliment from out of no where. There is no face value, perhaps an ulterior motive would be suspected. But again, all about timing.

I think that's part of it for sure. If someone is wearing a tie I can't keep my eyes off, I'll say "that's a *cracking* tie you've got on" but I don't turn to someone in the morning and say "you look lovely today, my darling" just because they are standing there and I want to be nice. That feels awkward to be on the recivieng end for me - compliments to be gracious and positive and not deeply felt. Again, I hate excess of sentiment though and would prefer they made me laugh or giggle with a joke and a wink, if they want to be positive and make me feel good.

It doesn't mean I dont enjoy good manners, it means I wasn't taught that way and I don't fit into that formula of "how to be polite"

That's why when I date some one, compatible sense of humour is one of stop three traits I need in partner. Someone who understands I prefer wit, playful sarcasm, teasing and endearment rather than formal politeness, ritual gratuity, and sentimental outpouring. I know I don't fit into other peoples molds of "what girls like" but you know we are all individuals and I don't like people getting arsey because I don't fit into a math formula about "wot u do to treat girlz so they likes me".

Butches are blokey. Blokes like tools. I'm going to give a butch a saw cause that's what butches like, right? What do you mean not all butches want a saw? This is so complicated! Its like no one has old school values anymore.

I know the above is silly, but that's what it often looks like to me. How about, a butch is an individual person with individual family history and cultural upbringing as well as a personality. So I'm going to find out what that butch wants by talking to them and not taking it as a blow to my ego if I make a mistake. If they are a dick about it, then they can bugger off.

Edit to add: if they *want* me to verbally praise them I will do my best and find reason to. However if they want it more than what feels fun or natural to me and it feels like I'm trying to hard then its not going to feel good for them either. Just like me asking someone to " be more witty" is not going to really work. I do absolutely take my partners needs into co aideration, but again, if we are dating, rather than being a partner, it's going to be quite noticeable where something like this is really clunky in a way that won't jive.

Like one person I dated for a few weeks really wanted a lot of praise and reassurance. For me it was a lot. It found it to start to get on my nerves. To someone else, it may be natural to give that level. She also gave lots and lots of unasked for praise to me about stuff and again, I found that gave me a facial tick. It grated. Badly. Every time wed hang out shed tell me I was a "generous spirit" and I tried to get her to stop but she told me I didn't know how to take a proper compliment. And I'd better get used to it (boundary crossing alert...)

But I'm sire there would be others who loved it!

Again, for me, whole point of dating.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm curious about the no "activities" until after sex? What's that about if you don't mind sharing? Is that a more formal date?

Yeah, I guess so. Maybe I'm just ass backwards? I kind of prefer

Informal, friendly, relaxed hanging out > informal, dating that doesn't cost much > sex, hanging out informally, learning more > sex sex and more sex > romantic stuff and activities > more sex > etc etc etc maybe meeting some friends of each others > decision for exclusivity and thus a relationship to see how it works > meeting parents and taking a vacation together > hey this really works, I even cleaned out a drawer for you to put some socks in and feel free to keep some shirts here.

That's kinda how it goes in my universe.

[C0LLETTE]

Perhaps "romance" and "romantic gestures" are a bit like the rapidly dying arts of giving and receiving compliments, increasingly fraught with awkwardness and suspicion. Personally, I'd rather just gratefully enjoy the moment and (maybe) worry about what you really had in mind, later.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

So, it comes down to how close the person is to what I am looking for and if they are going in the same direction as me.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I too find that if I date outside of my kink circles or kink oriented people, I will tend to feel trapped, caged, and sufficated and I tend to feel this way with all gender types.. I have felt it while dating feminine folks, masculine folks.. People who aren't into the kink dynamic who I have tried to date have a tendency to get all like this is my property kinda like.. That kinda shit makes me run for the hills, it's not natural, it's scary, and it feels unhealthy to me...

*snip*

Why sex changes things into some weird it's "Mine" Nemo seagull mentality I will never ever understand, and frankly want no part of!!!

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Sometimes, it was me that jumped in too fast and sometimes it was a partner that seemed to push. The main point i would like to make is this....everyone has different ideas of what a "relationship" or "dating" should be. When i meet someone new and we date, to me that it is just dating. Dating is dating. Discussion can be made at some point on the monogamy part. This is the time we try each other out, the mental connection, culturally, spiritually, physically. Even if i am monogamous, it's not set in stone i will be there long term, forever type stuff. Again, this is *my* definition of dating.

This is where i feel at least in some of my past relationships, communicated or not, it has been a real problem. Some will see monogamous dating is "forever and a day" some won't. I see it just as dating and that's it. Thankfully, a few of my exes agreed with that and we continue to be friends, no matter which of us broke it off. But, i've found that even if you discuss this at the beginning, there are problems later if the other person does not share your views 100%. You can't know for sure you want to spend the rest of your life with someone until you've known them a long time and been around them a lot. That's how i feel anyway.

Bottom line for me Communication is the key. Discussing what dating means specifically, monogamously or not, deeply with each party involved will make it easier in the end, if there is one.

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

So far the differences that can throw people are:

When to be monogamous
When to be romantic
What is romantic
How/when to have discussions about the above
What does dating mean

Also, Kelt said:

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy

...which cracked me up.

All of these posts lend to my philosophy in some way.

For me, it's archery. You shoot your arrow and I shoot my arrow and sometimes they wind up in the same circle and sometimes they wind up on separate targets altogether.

Pinkie Pie is correct: communication is key. Not everything can be worked out. Sometimes it just isn't going to happen. But most things can be worked out with time and patience and open and honest communication.

I am a 40 year old femme. I am stone. I am a girl. I am multi-faceted and each part of me offers a new angle to the same perspective.

I've dabbled in poly and it's not for me. I was the one brought in and I was the one that developed a weird jealous attachment thing so I was the one to withdraw myself from the relationship. I felt that Nemo "Mine!" thing and it was inappropriate given the situation. It was best for all involved for me to step back and I learned a very important lesson. It's also part of why I tread carefully when it comes to trusting someone when they are dating others.

I personally have an abundance of trust issues and even though I know my intentions when I say I want to have free reign without guilt when dating others I don't what a potential partner's intentions might be. Again, this is where time and patience and communication would come into play.

I'm somewhere between the kiddie pool and the riptide....maybe around the 4 ft mark in a standard backyard pool....when it comes to kink but I also require someone who at least has an interest in it and a base knowledge of it. When partnered with someone who don't have either, I feel small and like I am being emotionally restricted. I will not tolerate emotional suffocation, even if it's unintentional.

So, to get back to the core topic....I consider dating to be when people go on dates. Dating does not automatically mean monogamy. I do not expect someone I just started dating to be monogamous with me. It soothes my ego and some health concerns but it's not expected.

I prefer the option of us being free to date others until we.....as a unit....decide to become monogamous. There are many factors that would come into play before that could/would happen. There are levels of trust that must be reached and there are triggers/issues/et cetera that must be brought out of the shadows and dusted off.

At this point in my life, I would like to have someone important. Someone to call when I bump my head. Someone to put on the forms as an emergency contact.

BUT

I cannot live with someone. Nope. Not going to happen. Like cupcake, I'd be fine with being with someone who lives in the same building....preferably on a different floor and not directly above or below me....or maybe on each side of a duplex. I am crazy rabid possessive of my space. I've continually had my personal space torn up/dispersed/sold/emptied/moved/etc ALL OF MY LIFE. Those issues are far too deep-seated to shrink wrap now and are NOT going to change.

I think that I would enjoy drawing out the process more now. Be it courting or dating or romancing or separately cohabitating, I am not in the rush that I was before. I've taken time for myself and feel that I've pulled myself farther from the serial monogamist wormhole that I've found myself sucked into time after time.

Speaking of romance and old school type behaviors, it's not so bad. Not when it's done on the subtle side of things or even nonchalantly and naturally. When it's done with a flourish, as in "look what I just did for YOU!", it's bullshit and it smells like it. I'm majorly put off with most grand gestures.

I'm all about the details. Tell me all of your stories. The stupid, the adorkable, the sad and forlorn....everything. I want it all.

The Mother Monster said it best:

I want your ugly
I want your disease
I want your everything
As long as it's free
I want your love
Love, love, love I want your love

I want to discuss everything that would affect the outcome of the relationship fairly soon. The boundaries...sexual, physical, emotional...the triggers....the shadow issues. The likes/dislikes....what does your day off look like....what is your typical energy level....what makes you tick....what ticks you off....et cetera.

The more I know about you, the safer I can feel around you. The safer I feel, the more open I can be. The more open I am, the more trust you earn. The more trust you earn, the more vulnerable I am. It's a frightening thing to expose yourself and all of your quirks to one another.

Actually, at this moment, semi-casual sex doesn't sound so bad.

Oy.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Also, Kelt said:

If I showed up with flowers I'd...

1. scare off Cupcake

2. piss off Martina

3. get a date with Sleepy


[/B]

I am still laughing about this as if it were that easy...

[homoe]

Originally Posted by C0LLETTE

Perhaps "romance" and "romantic gestures" are a bit like the rapidly dying arts of giving and receiving compliments, increasingly fraught with awkwardness and suspicion. Personally, I'd rather just gratefully enjoy the moment and (maybe) worry about what you really had in mind, later.

Gosh I sure hope this isn't so!

I love romance and romance gesture, both giving and receiving. And as I always say a compliment costs nothing to give and it could make a person's day.....

Sidebar: When I say compliment it could be something as simple as telling someone how becoming their hairstyle is on them, or what a striking outfit, shoe, purse etc etc, perhaps even a compliment on the color/shade of said items.