Men with boobs.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

*******
Medusa and getting he'd online:

I have a theory I've been working on/watching for years and years. Straight women and queer women tend to speak/act differently when in a public setting. I'm sure gay men and straight men do this too, but I've never bothered to notice, cuz I don't care so much.

Queer women tend to speak more assuredly and with more conviction. I rarely hear queer women using the 'straight girl lilt' when they're talking about something. That's one difference. I'm on my phone, so I don't have time to go into all the other differences I've noticed over the years, but I have more examples.

I think because of homophobia and sexism, if a person isn't acting in traditional 'catering to men' (read straight girl lilt, asking questions instead of just speaking plainly), people (online) are going to assume that means man (because naturally anyone who's not catering to a man, must be a het man, because queers aren't even thought of until someone points it out)


Gotta Get Back To Work,
Dylan

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

And actually... and lastly... about this female ID v.s. male ID butch war that's supposedly happening. I'll be perfectly frank, I've experienced more indifference, heard more side-swipes as to identity... more direct swipes, saw more "who the hell cares" attitudes and more pronoun defaulting from femmes... by far, then I've ever heard from other butches.

This has been my observation as well.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Gemme

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

i think it's possible. i think a lot of people successfully do this. The problems come when you ASSUME others are or should be like you are.

Originally Posted by Gemme

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

It's not just an individual issue. It has social meaning when we default to "he." It defines the norm. Defining the norm as "he" is, for one thing, not statistically accurate. BY FAR, there are more butches who use female pronouns. It also is coercive in the context of right now -- our time, our place. It has cultural meaning.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley!

And I would still disagree with you.

I used my own experience as one example of countless. I no longer share much of my personal business on these boards, but I wasn't talking 'oh, I feel different...like a whole new person' kind of thing.

I don't quite get your welbutrin analogy, because I'm reading as though it proves what I'm saying. There is plenty of science that backs up what I'm saying when it comes to how testoterone and estrogen affect one's brain/emotions/whatnot.


We Can Agree To Disagree If You Want Tho, Cuz I'm Definitely Not About To Share My Personal Business On These Sites Anymore,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

[Jaques]

BOOBS FEED BABY HUMAN BEINGS..................they are wonderful on all who enjoy them - just not on me!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Jaques

BOOBS FEED BABY HUMAN BEINGS..................they are wonderful on all who enjoy them - just not on me!

So I am one of those human beings who had baby humans, my boobs were not used for that purpose, for you see I am not some fucking cow.. I am not defined by the fact I got tits to feed some crumb cruncher.. Now, if anyone else wants to be defined by that, go for it, but not all humans with boobs were made to feed humans..

Do you see how you are defining someone by their breasts?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I am one of those human beings who had baby humans, my boobs were not used for that purpose, for you see I am not some fucking cow.. I am not defined by the fact I got tits to feed some crumb cruncher.. Now, if anyone else wants to be defined by that, go for it, but not all humans with boobs were made to feed humans..

Do you see how you are defining someone by their breasts?

Touche! Right on point! Geezusfuckingchrist!

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I am one of those human beings who had baby humans, my boobs were not used for that purpose, for you see I am not some fucking cow.. I am not defined by the fact I got tits to feed some crumb cruncher.. Now, if anyone else wants to be defined by that, go for it, but not all humans with boobs were made to feed humans..

Do you see how you are defining someone by their breasts?

....Indeed you are not a f..ing cow and i dont define anyone by anything; of course it is a matter of choice whether someone feeds their young, but its an anatomical fact that breasts produce milk, whether in animals or humans for the purpose of feeding their young.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Jaques

....Indeed you are not a f..ing cow and i dont define anyone by anything; of course it is a matter of choice whether someone feeds their young, but its an anatomical fact that breasts produce milk, whether in animals or humans for the purpose of feeding their young.

So we're back to it's just all about the anatomy?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Jaques

....Indeed you are not a f..ing cow and i dont define anyone by anything; of course it is a matter of choice whether someone feeds their young, but its an anatomical fact that breasts produce milk, whether in animals or humans for the purpose of feeding their young.

Mine never did... The nurses were pretty fucking ugly to me, because I would not try, I know my body no milk was coming, just discomfort, someone got me a breast pump, so yes you did define by your statement.

Originally Posted by gayla

So we're back to it's just all about the anatomy?

Who the hell knows

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by gayla

So we're back to it's just all about the anatomy?

breasts ARE part of the anatomy - females, whether animal or human have mamories which produce milk for feeding their young - i see nothing wrong with that, in fact its wonderful as babies benefit enormously from their mothers milk................

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Jaques

breasts ARE part of the anatomy - females, whether animal or human have mamories which produce milk for feeding their young - i see nothing wrong with that, in fact its wonderful as babies benefit enormously from their mothers milk................

No one in this thread is questioning breasts as anatomy. I haven't seen a soul question whether breasts are "good" or "bad". I haven't seen discussion of breastfeeding, milk production or any other issues around the anatomical function of breasts. Which leads me to ask...have you read the thread?

If your answer is "yes" then can you explain your original post in greater detail because I must be missing something in context.

If your answer is "no" then, well, yeah..go boobs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

This is an interesting question to me. Both from a biological and social perspective (the old nature-nurture duality). There is no way I can give an answer because I have never felt I was in the wrong body even though I often felt just plain wrong growing up. Just not the right kind of girl, but a girl nonetheless. If I didn't have the parents I did, I don't know if I would have worked through this with a positive self-image. In my family there was room for different kinds of females and my two sisters and me actually covered quite a spectrum.

Although, I believe I have an other or perhaps a conglomorate gender, yet not inter-gendered in many ways, but am female at the core (don't know if this makes sense, or not). What is masculine in me is just female masculinity as I experience it. This isn't so for others.

I hope some TG/IG folks will comment. Or, is this moving outside of the thread intent? Dunno, there are so many issues being brought up.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Jaques

breasts ARE part of the anatomy - females, whether animal or human have mamories which produce milk for feeding their young - i see nothing wrong with that, in fact its wonderful as babies benefit enormously from their mothers milk................

I AM a mother, who had NO milk,that did not make me less than, nor was I made to be someone's food supply.. I am a mother, woman regardless of my breasts..

[Jaques]

[QUOTE=June;105411]Except when they don't. There are a lot of Breast Cancer survivors out there who are no less women because they have had mastectomies.

....you are right, and what i said has nothing to do with whether a woman is a still a woman without breasts............of course she is - i was in spain a while back on a naturist beach and this elderly couple came along where i was sitting with my partner, they were naked, she had only one breast and they looked very happy together. A woman is who she is, breasts or no!

What i was saying was that its an anatomocal fact that breasts are designed for feeding young. If a person choses not to or cannot do that, it doesnt mean theyre not womanly.

[Andrew, Jr.]

What about breast cancer? It is no longer just a women's cancer.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

What about breast cancer? It is no longer just a women's cancer.

ABSOLETELY......................men can have it too...............in fact, though i have had a double mastectomy, being TG, i had a lump which had to be investigated, turned out to be i'd caused a bruise due to some heavy physical work i'd done, and not noticed it...........luckily!

[SuperFemme]

Can we get back on topic? Seriously?
This is not a thread about breasts and what they can or cannot do.
You are taking away from a great conversation with this ridiculousness.