Men with boobs.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

This feels like the chicken and the egg with me...was there was no discord before the male-identified butches took it upon themselves to devalue the female-identified butches? Or are you saying society in general devalued female-identified butches and then it was basically 'on'. I wasn't around then and, though I know some of my community's history, I could definitely learn more.

I understand what Arwen was saying, I think, and I also feel as if there's a line drawn in the sand. No, we don't want anyone to address 'us' as 'them'. It's one thing to want to be called what I id as (and I think that most of us do try to do our best to respect our peers and address them as they'd like to be seen) and another to automatically look to the other party in a less than respectful way because someone slipped up and called us the wrong pronoun or label or whatever it was in that moment.

There seems, to me, to be less of "Hey, that's not how I id. Please call me this next time, okay?" and more of "Ewwww! That's not how I id! Don't call me THAT!" Whether it comes from male-identified butches or female-identified butches, it's not a nice thing. There's more tolerance for straight people looking in than those within our own circle. That feels like we're tearing our own community apart and for what? To say "I'm right!" basically. Why can't we all be right (for ourselves) and let everyone else, be it female-identified or male-identified or kiwi-identified or any other number of identities...why can't we just accept one another? It's like we're eroded our community from the inside out....like a virus.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

I read the last couple of paragraphs and I'm sure that my first response is what may seem like a perfect example of what you speak of. Except it's not.

Arwen spoke of not letting how one person identifies affecting her identity and that is true for all of us. Your identity shouldn't affect mine and vise versa, but somehow....especially with female and male-identified butches, this seems to me to play out differently. Almost as if one can't exist without the other but there's still that immediate rejection of the other. I'm not finding the right words I fear to express my thoughts as well as they could (like Arwen was, I'm a bit tired).

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

Someone...bete?...said that calling her partner he creates invisibility for her and I see that. I've fought against it and, at other times, have hidden behind it when it felt safer to do so. That's a privilege that many don't have and I am aware of it and have been grateful and hateful of it too.

I tend to default to male pronouns as well. I know more male-identified or masculine preferring butches than female-identified butches in my own bubble. However, I respect that butch does not equal he and adjust the way I address someone if I know their identity and preference BUT in the case where I'm speaking of someone and they are not there to ask and no one else knows their preference I'll either say he (that's my default showing) or their screen name. When I get the chance to ask them personally, I will.

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

I'm asking this of you, Martina, not only because some of your post sparked something in me but because I feel that you may have an answer that would help me to understand better. I'm not coming from an argumentative place and I hope that that is not how I read. I'm genuinely curious.

[BullDog]

Personally all the female-identified, woman-identified, etc jargon does not at all reflect ME. No offense intended to those who find personal meaning in those terms.

I have yet to hear one single butch ever say they are engaged in some sort of war.

I don't identify as a woman- I AM a woman. I live my life as a woman, as a masculine woman, as a Butch. It's not something I "identify with." I live it.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Gemme

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

i think it's possible. i think a lot of people successfully do this. The problems come when you ASSUME others are or should be like you are.

Originally Posted by Gemme

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

It's not just an individual issue. It has social meaning when we default to "he." It defines the norm. Defining the norm as "he" is, for one thing, not statistically accurate. BY FAR, there are more butches who use female pronouns. It also is coercive in the context of right now -- our time, our place. It has cultural meaning.