Men with boobs.

[JustJo]

Responding to Dylan, but not copying the whole thing....

I appreciate that you shared these stories, because this stuff does happen. As I posted earlier, I do check that pronoun spot on the profile bar because I do want to use the correct pronoun. I wouldn't want to be called he...tyvm...and I don't want to do that to anyone else either.

When I first joined the dash site I made friends with a butch who had hy as their designated pronoun on the profile. Okay, great. I called hym hy. When I met hys girlfriend, who also refers to hym as hy online, she called hym she. Now I'm confused. I asked the butch....what do you prefer?
Hy said "oh either way is fine." Ugh. Okay, now I'm really messed up. If I call hym she online, others will eat my head for disrespecting. If I'm talking about hym to her, do I say she? Please know that I'm truly NOT trying to be flippant here (and it's okay, cuz they're friends and we had this conversation already), but it is crazy-making for those of us who do care, do respect that, and do want to call you what you prefer to be called.

And yes, some people do ignore stated preferences...and I find that very disrespectful.

And...Dylan...as a side note, you had me totally stumped with the MIB's and FIB's for a minute....cuz I was seeing MIB and thinking "Men In Black?" Sorry.....my son's favorite movie....duh....

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Gemme

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Thanks for your post Dylan. There does seem to be a stubborn refusal by a segment of femmes that I find baffling. It certainly is not all femmes. There are plenty of femmes who partner with or date trans men and male id butches who are very supportive and use the right pronouns or ask when they don't know.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything..........

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

[DapperButch]

[QUOTE=BullDog;105933]Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

[BullDog]

[quote=DapperButch;106099]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Jett]

That fact that anyones defaulting instead of asking is simply lazy (like Dylan said) and with that laziness shows a great deal of indifference to those who get the short end of the default stick...

Because to default, you have to make a choice of he or she... and in that consciously choose who to disrespect.

When people who've been in the community for some time say that they do still use default pronouns... truly it says nothing to me about the he's or she's, or their value... but it speaks to me about the person who defaults, and their internal values.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Have to agree with Dylan and others about the laziness factor. I also feel deeply when our TG/IG members (including the women/femmes that love them) are disrespected/marginalized/pooh-pahed via the pronoun use. As bully points out, this all goes deeper than pronouns and name-tags. So many of us struggle with aspects of our identity here and really do need a space in which we can just talk about it!

Something I keep thinking about while engaging in the thread is how can we get away from all of the assumptions when we (all of us across the butch gender spectrum) simply state our female or male identifications?

dapper has a good take on this in terms of some of us not filling in the pronoun area because no matter what, someone takes whatever is there as some kind of bashing (goes both ways with male or female identities).

I get upset when I see generalizations about male identified/TG/IG members as well as we female/woman butch types! I see many stereotypic statements about them being sexist and hell, there are many female id'd butches that make very sexist comments! Has nothing to do with gender identity at all. Frankly, most TG guys I know are feminists!

So much of this stuff has never made sense to me. Martina pointed out something important to me, however. My history and geographic locale has skewed and blinded me, I think. I walk in this world with trans people all around me and have for many, many years. I have to say that my experiences pre-B-F exposure were very different in this context. It wasn't until actively living as a butch and entering this community that I have seen so much cruelty, sterotypic assumptions and out and out hostility about gender differences. Sometimes, I honestly do think about going back to just a lesbian identity even if I finally found a place of acceptance for my female masculinity and deep attraction to femmes as well as being able to talk with other butches and knowing they get me!

This has become so very confusing, frustrating and just plain painful to me. I know damn well that putting Bully’s quote on my sig line will cause BS. But, I am truly touched by what this says and just can’t remain hidden behind the insane butch margins any longer. My TG/IG friends know exactly how I feel and they are who matter really in terms of any back lash. The morons, as Beau points out, just don't matter as they will never engage in thyis conversation or ones like it in any meaniongful manner. they will continue to make stupid and childish boob and cock jokes.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Ahhh, I misread you then. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[apretty]

a zillion times yes!

Originally Posted by Martina

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[Jett]

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways. [/QUOTE]

Hey Gemme, actually I never noticed you use the chicken and egg thingy previously.

The chicken and egg reference (in my post) was to say perhaps that what caused a female ID'd butch to feel pressured to ID as "he" in the forum seemed more pertinent (to me) in the conversation than the idea that her doing that was somehow partially the source of "confusion" for people (about pronouns what-ever) because of some "mixed messages".

I'd assume since no one would really be aware a peep was doing that (except in this case June who knew her privately and seems to still be able to use correct pronouns etc. after the event) that such an occurrence wouldn't really have an affect on whether people can ask or know what pronouns to use etc.... in that I really don't see how it's "undermining everything" as you said either.

Also... I'm not seeing where I tried to choose "what posts do and do not elicit a response" in you (point it out if you like)... rather I simply said that that I found it interesting and relevant. Perhaps there is some misreading going on, both sides... but I don't do that, not that type of person.

And absolutely correct "criticism" is different than commentary...

Anyway, thanks for responding but I'm out on this one.

Metro

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

[Soon]

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

don't get me started on how stone doesn't even exist.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.

Originally Posted by Martina

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

Both of you bring so many points out here that are important and I personally thank you both. yeppers butch can mean male, female, TG, IG, et. all!

The other thing that just makes me feel good is Dylan pointing out (even though you were whatevered.. major eye-roll) to this femme that she was doing the same thing! I have been in situations like this in which both has happened and someone needed to hear that it is important to use appropriate prounouns for all of us.

You might be right in that the FIB just isn't used to this. Hopefully, she will think about it more and develop awareness. And why the femme just didn't get that it is equally respectful to use female pronouns is beyond me!

Argh.... I almost (have to say this, as I know I dodged a big bullet!) dated a femme that not only insisted on calling me he, him, etc. (yes, even after I corrected her many times), but wanted to give me a more male sounding first name!!! She even called me with a list of butch names I might want to use!!! I was quite attracted to her (at first), but must say after this, my libido fizzled rapidly... as in flat-lined!!!

And I am working on zie pronouns too.... I will get there, I promise!!!

[Cyclopea]

I've been surprised to meet several butches that refer to themselves as "he" online but as "she" in real life, even among the femme-butch community locally.
As it was explained to me by one couple, "he" was used online to express her bonafides of butchness, while "she" was used in real life because she did not consider herself transgender and in real life she was a "proud dyke" and that online is just bullshit anyway.
I don't really judge what people feel they need to do.. okay wait, I guess truthfully I thought that was really weak.
It's so much easier to conform I guess, especially if that's the only way to be respected. At least that's how it was explained to me.
Long story short, my experience parallels June's and whoever else mentioned it.
I agree that holding butch women responsible for their own oppression is a ridiculous meme; however the acquiescence and conformity of women- even butch women- to their own oppression is not a new idea. It's pretty hard to stand up to a tidal wave when letting it pass by seemingly harmlessly may be effortless. Really, people are here not to battle tidal waves but to have fun.
The most disturbing thing to me is the number of people posting to this thread- the small number (and please don't take that as an insult because I have appreciated everyone who posted whether I shared their view or not).
I guess it's a time commitment to read every post in a thread and respond coherently. I would enjoy seeing more voices on this topic, whatever their view.
So many of you "oldsters" have bemoaned the "never-endingness" of the topic of the devaluation of the woman in "butch" but to me this is not a repetitive boring unresolvable conversation but one so relevant and interesting that it requires continued examination.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

So true and I have wondered the same thing. And I have to mention MtF's as well along with stone. I do know a couple of MtF's that used to post on the old site, but just began to feel too alienated. I think there are many different femme presentations and identifications that are shut out here and on other B-F sites. Although, I think as the site continues this will change as it feels very open to me. Then, again, POC members have brought concerns up that they felt have simply carried over.

Maybe because the Planet is fairly new and lots of folks from the old site do not particpate here, these areas just have not developed their voice yet. I hope new folks feel free to begin threads about these, too. Actually, I get really jazzed when I see posts by people I have never seen before. There are so many ideas out there that I have never had an opportunity to learn or hear about. And hell, I'm old!

Since I can't go to the ReUnion () due to economics, I plan on attending the Femme Conference here in the Bay Area that same weekend. Will be my first and I am looking forward to the topics femmes will discuss.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

lol..........