Men with boobs.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yeah, cuz ilu!

Ilu2. I hope that is acceptable.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This is the part of the thread that people get uncomfy with, the mentioning of the vulva and it's many uses, and I know that someone out there is going to drive by read this and wrinkle their nose at the icky thought...

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is the part of the thread that people get uncomfy with, the mentioning of the vulva and it's many uses, and I know that someone out there is going to drive by read this and wrinkle their nose at the icky thought...

heh. you said "vulva". heh.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Wow, Ezee. While I do love a being on the receiving end of a good razzing, I saw that you were the last person to post and was expecting some smartypants insight...so I'm feeling a little bit let-down.

Do you have anything to add to the conversation, Tiger?

(I loooooove your ladyfriend.)

Add ins:

• I try to treat all people with respect
• What goes on between consenting adults isn't really that interesting to me (most of the time)
• I get off just fine

I think that's it.

[apretty]

i have a few questions, they're in black...

Originally Posted by Bit

Because this right here, the online butch/femme community, is the one place in the world where it's safe to say "he" about a person who is living in a female body; more than that, it's immediately understood with little or no explanation. *shrugs*

but it's not understood--it actually adds to the confusion. and what does that do to the entire *person* while we (as a community) shove aside the *female* and pay some homage to "HE" of said person?


Also, sometimes it's the Butch's choice, not the partner's; so in that case, a person would not be flipping back and forth depending on the audience, but out of respect for the personal preference of the Butch.

it is the butch's choice, she does have control over choosing her pronoun (which includes the 'when/where' option), so it actually is flipping back and forth dependent on 'audience'. and do you think it's at all reasonable to request a femme to ping-pong between pronouns, dependent on some arbitrary set of rules? (this becomes no longer about gender--it's about something else, entirely--and not just safety tho i can understand that that is a concern--but when you have multiple rules surrounding pronouns i have to wonder about what that means.)

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

could you walk me through how using a MALE pronoun is anymore validating than using a FEMALE pronoun?

It seems like a really crucial point to me. I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity; for some Butches, this is the place they come to find validation of themselves as whole people, as "both female and male."

it feels actually less 'whole' to me because it seems like the "butch" is being parted-out like a junkyard truck. (not that i'm trying to console/mother/care-take anyone, here.)

As for partners using different pronouns at different times? For many people, it's easy to write one way and speak another--"he" online, "she" verbally--and very difficult to navigate speaking in two different ways about the same person. I never used to have any problems with that, but lately I find that I've been slipping; at first I was accidentally saying "he," but lately the overwhelming pressure the rest of the world puts on me to ONLY speak about Gryph as "she" means that I sometimes find myself saying or writing "she" when I would ordinarily use "he."


this has me curious, what is the 'he' that the 'she' doesn't encompass?

Here's the reason I accept that pressure: my allowing myself to be in the habit of saying "he" (in other words, saying "he" at home) could cause serious problems for Gryph--his co-workers, for instance, have sometimes been brutal about his identity--and his old friends, his family, my family, the local community, our neighbors, none of them would get it if I said "he." It would make life immensely more difficult for us both, and would not bring any benefits to either of us; it's better that I just say "she" when I'm speaking (verbally) to other people about Gryph.

is 'she' less-than? did Gryph use 'she' prior to meeting you?

Going back and forth between facebook (she) and BFP (he) sometimes trips me up; facebook is one of those places where the communities collide. A significant number of our facebook friends would be baffled by having to deal with Butch gender identification. (Our friends are certainly baffled by having to deal with my Femme gender identification--baffled to the point that I gave up trying to explain it long ago.) In that case, we figure our friends who are from the butch/femme community will get it about why we have to use the female pronouns for someone who has always been known in this community as "he," especially as it seems to be a pretty common occurrence among the Butches we're friended with.

Gryph, being a Two-Spirit, honestly does not care what other people call him, but I think if *I* stopped calling him "Daddy" and "he" it would puzzle and hurt him very much. I am the one person in his day-to-day life who sees him as he actually is, both female and male. We both need me to say "he," whenever and wherever it is safe to do so, and we both know that in order to avoid making mistakes, I have to be pretty consistent about where I say "she" and where I say "he."

...

I didn't say anything about it (although I was flabbergasted; "beautiful"? Has she never paid attention to his pictures, to his wonderful craggy face?) because I don't know what he would want, and that's what's most important in a situation like this: how Gryph wants to respond. The person is someone he cares for, someone he's shepherding through a rough time; he very well might have decided either to speak or to let that go, and I have no right to decide for him. (But it was damned hard to hold my tongue!)

can't a butch be beautiful? can't Butch, be beautiful?

...

And that's the reason I say "he" here.

[SuperFemme]

Butches ARE beautiful. How can anyone negate THAT?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Butches ARE beautiful. How can anyone negate THAT?

Duh, cause that word only belongs to femmes.... Where ya been?

[PapaC]

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

I think it almost funny that we are STILL having to do this, you would think as a community we would evolve and not continue to perpetuate the binary. I don't think it will happen unless we are open to listen and put into practice what is being talked about.

What chu think>?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by PapaC

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

because it reduces the woman to "almost a man" and chunks of flesh, like this:

[SuperFemme]

I think the more pertinent discussion is "how can we teach others how statements like "she's a short man with boobs are erasing and hurtful"?

Because we all know misogyny and sexism are hurtful. To EVERYONE.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I think it almost funny that we are STILL having to do this, you would think as a community we would evolve and not continue to perpetuate the binary. I don't think it will happen unless we are open to listen and put into practice what is being talked about.

What chu think>?

I think we should agree to:

a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space

OR

b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space.

Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting.

That is what I think.


Yes, I know I am

(and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!)

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by apretty

because it reduces the woman to "almost a man" and chunks of flesh, like this:

you know devil's advocate here (examining myself now)...
it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs.

it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time....

I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me.

Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger.

He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO".

For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?)

I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se...

It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference.

In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it....

In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't.

Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by PapaC

you know devil's advocate here (examining myself now)...
it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs.

it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time....

I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me.

Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger.

He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO".

For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?)

I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se...

It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference.

In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it....

In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't.

Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all.

Your entire post touches many thing in me and cuts across the divisions we all (butches, femmes, trans/inter-gebndered, et ALL) struggle so deeply with. Mysogyny certainly does touch us all.

I have to add that i appreciate the comments about Heart as I have been really having a hard time with her again being pissed-on when she brings up such relevant (yet, not easy to discuss) topics and issues. I'm tired of her (and a couple of other members) needing to exit threads as valuable as this one, especially when they are the ones bringing these critical matters to us all to attempt conversation and hopefully, take some new awareness in. frankly, it just makes me sad. She's kicked me in the butt a few times when I needed it and I am a better person for this because this makes me THINK!

I don't know if what I am saying is appropriate or not, but, I just needed to say it. I'm not cheerleading, I'm just speaking my truth and appreciate your being able to as well.

It seems that the last few posts from femmes might just move us through so much more and I hope this happens. Also, it feels so fucking good to be involved in a thread about such sensitive butch stuff with trans, MIBs and inter-gendered folks and other FIBs in which we are all comfortable talking about things and not falling into angry stances. This feels respectful and inclusive and frankly, has brought some tears to my eyes and a whole lot of pride to my heart and soul as a butch and member.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I think we should agree to:

a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space

OR

b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space.

Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting.

That is what I think.


Yes, I know I am

(and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!)

if B is the chosen option...........well.... that will get my tits in ringer damn quick especially consider how much time has been spent in this thread alone pointing out that it's just utter bullshit to default to 'he' for butch pronouns. I never have been about making life easier............laughin..

----------
My name has been thrown out here several times.........laughin.....

First for those who are new. I have been ranting/raving/talking about this on-line pronoun issue for at least 10 years now. I have never let up, even when it seemed I was the only butch woman on the other site. It's important. I do have to say this.........I kind of giggle to myself when someone suggests that because I prefer female pronouns and have been known to be the one making footprints on the ceiling, I am somehow less butch or less masculine. Oh wait...........I said I giggled......dammittalltohell.... butches don't giggle.......I forget these things....I'm also not supposed to be called beautiful or like receiving flowers.

Snow............yep I do remember being called 'Miss'. I was kind of stunned at first, but then I got over that. I'm rarely ever given to violence, however I would have ripped her face off if I could have. I don't know if I ever thanked those who jumped up her shit for that........thank you if I didn't.

I do think femmes police butch pronouns and gender expression far more than butches do. I've never ever had a butch tell me they thought of all butches as he. I certainly have had femmes tell me that.......and the ones who have would shock folks if I named names. I do think I've been policed far more for claiming my cunt and my clit than for my wanting she as a pronoun. Interestingly that policing on both fronts has been done by femmes under the age of 45 or so.

I am also amazed that someone ALWAYS comes in a thread about butch woman and defends/talks about male id'd butches...........ALWAYS........EVERY TIME. I had somehow hoped it would not happen here.........but that was stupid on my part....

anyway.........I'm rambling now and I hope this is the right thread.........laughin...........I'm having a mentalpause day..........

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

Just a little re-focusing.....

[Toughy]

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

I quote myself for a reason..........I wanted to add

A place to be accepted and loved for being a butch woman who has a cunt, a clit, and a cock..............

[redrose]

i did love a butch, and i still love her, whatever they say about butches, i just love her, including her boobs (lol!), i love the whole package, and no one can stop me from loving her, i love her, i love her, i just love her

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

Thanks for this Toughy. It's been gnawing at me for a few days. Yes male identified butches need a place for support and being understood. So do butch women. So do femmes and trans people and everyone.

Coming into a place as a butch woman where you think you are finally with your community and then being He'd all the time and always compared or likened to men- what does that do for the validation for butch women? We are called the right pronouns in the outside world (although still quite misunderstood), but the wrong ones in our own community? That's what it was like for quite some time before this site. So the first exposure many butch women had to an online b-f community (and many people have a limited or non-existence real time b-f community) was to immediately be called He.

All of us need validation. All of us need support. I don't feel that male pronouns are the default here at BFP. I am very happy about that. I also have no problem referring to anyone as He who wants to be referred that way.