Men with boobs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

This is exactly how it is for me in navigating the world, past and present. And I am glad that it also a space in which those who need the other side/any and all sides to this equation can be themselves. And I will always bring out the wonder I feel as a butch woman with breasts, vagina, clitoris and accessories as needed. (Yup, I’m a breast stimulated cuming, penetration adoring, un-invested in butch cock as required not afraid to say it butch woman that continually is called sir who corrects when called such!Oh, and did you know that some men cum via breast stimulation.. without anything going on with their cock?) Like I said before, I am not going to hide my female/woman features or allow my being female-identified be dismissed or shamed (or relegated to butch-lite - love this, Bully)). I also believe that this community can stand together and fight every form of misogyny and sexism, trans/homophobia or various negative judgments of sexuality (i.e., stone, BDSM) that hurts every single one of us no matter how we identify or live our lives.

No, I won't be pigeon-holed to being a man (or male defaulted) either, but to me as a person, recognizing what goes on for people on these various sides is important and is a major factor that makes this a community. I don't have to be something, understand it fully or even agree with it in order to honor its right for recognition and liberty among this entire community (been thinking a lot about constitutional matters lately, so terms like liberty and justice are just on my mind - its an election year with another Supreme Court nomination going on).

Oh, I already have ringing in my ears! I don’t care if my butchness gets called into question (although think this is palin bullshit), I know who I am and I don’t partake in popularity contests. The same femme that wanted to change my first name to something more manly also told me I would never gain respect from other butches unless I became enamored with and invested in butch cock. ARGH!! And yes, I have gotten shit from butches too around this stuff (guess she had a point), been snubbed by some of them, etc. - so please, do not take that statement as blaming everything on femmes- I don’t. This garbage falls into both butch & femme categories and we all need to own it and erradicate it.

[BullDog]

Tonight I was lucky enough to get together with a group of people that included femmes, a couple butches that go by He, quite a few butches that go by She, and some people whom I am not sure how they identify. Anyway, the important thing wasn't everyone's pronouns or gender identity. What was important was we had good conversation, games, food and delicious cupcakes!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I don't have to be something, understand it fully or even agree with it in order to honor its right for recognition and liberty among this entire community

Thank you AtLast...you've summed up exactly what I feel in this one sentence. As a newbie to this dynamic there's alot that I don't understand; there's alot that I am not ...and there's even some that personally confuses the heck out of me ...but I am with you that I absolutely honor everyone's right to be who they are, and to be recognized...and even celebrated....for that.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Tonight I was lucky enough to get together with a group of people that included femmes, a couple butches that go by He, quite a few butches that go by She, and some people whom I am not sure how they identify. Anyway, the important thing wasn't everyone's pronouns or gender identity. What was important was we had good conversation, games, food and delicious cupcakes!

Bully,

Your post has been reported for taunting the rest of us about the cupcakes. Someone needs to share!!!!!!
(Did anyone lose a fillng?!)

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

Originally Posted by Nat

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

[blush]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

My initial response was more relevant to what you had posted. I edited it.
Sorry for the confusion.

I think we're all pretty solid on our awareness of people's preferences. But I think femmes are held more accountable than other people if the pronoun is incorrect, or if she admits that sometimes it's hard.

[Dude]

For starters, I really take offence with the short man with boobs thing this
woman said.

I wont go on about my problem with short men. My dad was one,nearly all of my bosses
have exuded the stuff of the short man syndrome.
It would be completely unfair to short men everywhere to say they are all alike, I get that.

With the short man and the boobs word ,I would be completely insulted by them used
together to describe me to the fuckin world.

Let me talk cows then.

Had I been born a cow , bull would be what I identified with from a very young age.
I dreamed of having a wife and providing for my family from the age of 10ish.
Smallish udders began to appear 6 years after that. At that time, I decided I could
have a nice life after surgery.
As time went by, I realized there were women who preferred odd ducks such as
myself and surgery was not really necessary at this point in time.

Later, I realized my mom would have huge issues (nervous breakdown or perhaps tons of dramatics as to what she had done wrong as a mother when it came to me)
She would have been horrified. It was hard enough for her to be the first to tell me at 12 "woah
you are a butch"!!!
I loved her and did nothing. On morphine, towards her passing was when she was able to enjoy me for being just who I am.

So for me it's all very personal. 9 times out of 10 it seems people out and about ,or at work etc call me sir.

I don't have the energy or words to correct them all.
Especially if I'm correcting them to a maam or miss or she.

This does not negate the fact that I also am very proud of the many times I have been
the first bull with udders to be hired to do a strictly bull job.


My honey just reminded me of a movie called barnyard she made me watch with her.
The boy cows even have udders.

She then told me I cant be Ben the bull because Ben was nice and I'm not a cow I'm an ass.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bully,

Your post has been reported for taunting the rest of us about the cupcakes. Someone needs to share!!!!!!
(Did anyone lose a fillng?!)

The Ezee-June cupcakes were out of this world! I had two, even though they were incredibly rich. No fillings were lost, just lots of pleasant sugar highs. We even got to take one home!

I truly wish everyone could have been there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

I don't think many butches are upset about honest and unintentional mistakes. I definitely don't think that's what people are talking about in this thread. If unsure all people have to do is ask or just not use a pronoun. It may sound a bit awkward but it can be done.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ezee-June cupcakes were out of this world! I had two, even though they were incredibly rich. No fillings were lost, just lots of pleasant sugar highs. We even got to take one home!

I truly wish everyone could have been there.

Next time we're so there. Sounds like you all had a wonderful time.
I've always wanted to see Portland and June's chicken. Wondering if it's like Betty White's muffin.......

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

Next time we're so there. Sounds like you all had a wonderful time.
I've always wanted to see Portland and June's chicken. Wondering if it's like Betty White's muffin.......

Awesome Ezee! It will be great to see you and apretty.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"?

This is a bit of a generalization that I've heard before. Not all do id that way.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Love your Fuck Thats!

I don't get it. Don't much care for any hierarchy, actually. But, I think I just don't understand what this is all about. How and why this insinuation is even made. Thanks.

Also, all of the less than/more of garbage about butches or femmes makes me crazy! Why are we so wrapped-up in this kind of stuff? Has it always been like this in the B-F community? For a community that shouts about diversity being such an important aspect, the narrowness in what is butch or femme and to what degree is astounding.

OMG, I'm cussing!!

Uh oh. . Cuss away.

There are so many identities in our community, I suppose it is quite easy to be confused by them all and, according to where someone lives and their exposure to various identities throughout their lives, most may never be exposed to them all. And then, just when someone has it all figured out, the identities will evolve. So, it's not about the identities, but the people who carry them in their hearts and on their sleeve, so I agree with you about tearing one another down. It's garbage. It's almost like the intolerance we feel towards our community as a whole has been encapsulated and turned inward. Energy, especially negative, doesn't die...it has to go somewhere and so we use it to strike out at our own.

*rambling*

[BullDog]

These are great points from AtLast and Gemme. You know we talk about fighting the binary and being in favor of gender diversity all the time, but at the same time there also seems to be a tendency to want to stereotype and simplify as well. To a certain degree that may be human nature. We may all gravitate towards what we are most familiar with.

However, if we really do want to fight the binary, let's start within our own community. Saying that only having two genders- man and woman - is limiting and then having narrow meanings of what femme and butch are or perpetuating stereotypes doesn't get us far at all. That's not to say many haven't been trying hard already, but I am sure we can all try to do better and broaden and deepen our understandings of each other.

Yes it can be hard to remember pronouns, it can be hard to understand all the different genders and gender expressions if you aren't familiar with them or aren't exposed to them in real time. None of this necessarily easy, but with a gender diverse community there will be more variables. That's what diversity means in the first place.

[Darth Denkay]

So many excellent points made in this thread, but this one especially stuck out to me.

Originally Posted by gayla

We're linear people living in a linear world. We grow, chronologically, along a linear scale - 15 is "less than" 20 when talking about age - so it's easy for me to see how some people can view what they used to be as being "less than" what they are now. Especially when what they used to be was something they didn't like or weren't comfortable with. That process of evolution from "just me" to "butch" to "stone butch" to "TG butch", etc. is very linear for most people so "just me" becomes less than "TG butch" for them. I think the issues come in when people can't see that the process is an individual one and not everyone evolves at the same rate or even to the same place.

I've spent a lot of time in the last 8 year's trying to define my own identity. Really, truly, in my heart of heart's I probably fall more into the "just me" category because I do see my gender as a fluid, ever changing kind of thing. I fall more to the male ID'd side of things, and it's where I'm most comfortable on a public level, but there's so much more to me then just that.

I think that Gayla identified a key aspect of what occurs on this and other similar sites. I've been involved in the b-f online community for about 12 years now. When I first joined, the default clearly was he. This felt comfortable to me so I never gave it a second thought. Over the years my identity "evolved". I went from butch to trans-butch-masculine-stone-daddy, and I imagine there were a few other identifiers I used at some point. I saw myself "evolving," as though butch was just the starting point for something bigger and better. At some point I dropped stone and daddy - figured those identities are really just applicable to someone I'm dating and/or sleeping with so they really were no one's business. I continued to play around with trans, butch, masculine-identified, male-identified, and at this point I have "evolved" to identifying as butch. Without being conscious of it, I was completely buying into a butch hierarchy. Recently someone - I think it was Bully but not certain - challenged me on my identity as masculine-identified. Since then I've been really thinking about all of this butch gender stuff, and realized that for me butch is plenty.

I think the use of the word "evolve" is key here. There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch. I looked up evolution, and while I know some of you loathe definitions in posts I think this is important.

By way of dictionary.com


e·volve
   e·volved, e·volv·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to develop gradually: to evolve a scheme.
2.
to give off or emit, as odors or vapors.
–verb (used without object)
3.
to come forth gradually into being; develop; undergo evolution: The whole idea evolved from a casual remark.
4.
Biology . to develop by a process of evolution to a different adaptive state or condition: The human species evolved from an ancestor that was probably arboreal.

My inclusion of the definition is to point out that I think often the word "evolve" is assumed to mean 'changed into something better', when all it really signifies is change into something else. I think a lot of this is due to how we envision the evolution of the species as going from less complex to more complex, with more complex being better than less complex. I think an amoeba might disagree there, although it probably doesn't give a damn because it has more important amoeba things to do. Anyway, it's one thing for identities to change, but it's another for the change to be seen as a progression from less to more.

As I've considered my own identifiers, I realized something. I was identifying as masculine, because I saw myself as masculine more than feminine but not male, as I understand that to be (in my mind) more closely tied to man. However, don't most butches identity as masculine? Saying that I am masculine doesn't give any information that distinguishes me from female or male identified folks. I tried to figure out, okay self, are you more like female or male identified, and I have absolutely no idea. I like male pronouns because they recognize my masculinity. For me that feels good. For other butches, who may feel just as masculine, female pronouns feel right. Is our masculinity any different - who the hell knows. So after years of "evolution" here I am back to being butch. A butch who prefers male pronouns, but nonetheless butch.

I realize that pronouns carry differing amounts of importance for different people. It is important to me that people respect my preference here. I don't mean to suggest that additional identifiers are useless for others, but to describe myself they don't offer additional information. I don't know of any way to quantify the difference between a female-identified butch and a male-identified butch. What's the difference between a butch who identifies as a woman and one who does not. There are qualitative differences to be sure, but I don't know where to start with defining those.

All of this is to say that I think we often are stuck on this "evolution" of butch (with no similar evolution for femme) and do place value on undergoing this evolution. In the end, change identities because they better describe you, but not because you're supposed to. Evolution does not lead to better, only different.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by blush

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

I think (could be wrong) that most of the posts at first were in response to the laziness explanation posted. Mainly, because we do have a place on the Planet to just put the pronouns we prefer out there.

However, quite a few ensuing posts brought up some very gamey things that frankly, I have to put on butches. Feel like these examples of how genuine attempts for the sake of clarity and respectful interaction can run afoul. And the most disturbing thing to me is that underlying this is the continuation of some butches feeling they must man-up on the site. I am probably going to get smacked around for this, but....... if and when this happens, it is more about personal insecurity and not femmes or other butches, TG/IG folks. Yes, I think some of this is hard at times, but we all have to look at ourselves in life and own personal horseshit (good clinical term, LOL). Not easy, not fun, but necessary. Accountability is always personal.

I posted a couple of situations that happened to me, that involved a femme as examples for the discussion as a whole. I in no way meant this as femme bashing or placing ultimate blame on femmes. In the end, butches have to take responsibility for ourselves and speak up for ourselves (all butches, no matter the identity). I should have included that I did just that in that situation- told her exactly how I felt about this and why this went to the fact that I could not pursue a relationship with her. Not in a mean way.

Part of what I am saying here has to do with disdain for things like butch-ego (really meaning male-ego). Didn’t care for this when I was hetero, made certain my son did not internalize and buy it, and find it insulting not only as a butch, but as a human being. It seems like there are related terms/phrases that femmes get tagged with that are equally as insulting. There have been many times that I have seen very insulting assumptions about femme identity both from butches and other femmes. Thinking now about some of the posts bringing to light that we seem to discuss this in terms of butches far more.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

.... There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch....


[/FONT]

Hey, there, Darth.

First I want to say that I loved your post. LOVED it.

But, I chopped the heck out of it...lol I took just one snipet of it, but I think that this is not taken out of context from the whole post. If so, please let me know.

Anyway, with that said....

I absolutely disagree with you. lol I strongly disagree with the idea that there is an unspoken understanding that butch should evolve into something specific and that ideally it should be a more masculine identity.

Absolutely disagree.

Now I have seen some butches who seem to not understand their own feelings of masculinity and subsequently they wonder if this means they are FTM (I am thinking I see this most often with people who just figure out that they are butch/find community for the first time), but I disagree that there is some expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity", than "just butch" when they walk in the door.

But, that's just my opinion.

ETA: This is not the same as saying that there has not been an encouargement towards using the pronoun he in the community. That is a different issue, in my mind.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, there, Darth.

First I want to say that I loved your post. LOVED it.

But, I chopped the heck out of it...lol I took just one snipet of it, but I think that this is not taken out of context from the whole post. If so, please let me know.

Anyway, with that said....

I absolutely disagree with you. lol I strongly disagree with the idea that there is an unspoken understanding that butch should evolve into something specific and that ideally it should be a more masculine identity.

Absolutely disagree.



Now I have seen some butches who seem to not understand their own feelings of masculinity and subsequently they wonder if this means they are FTM (I am thinking I see this most often with people who just figure out that they are butch/find community for the first time), but I disagree that there is some expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity", than "just butch" when they walk in the door.

But, that's just my opinion.

ETA: This is not the same as saying that there has not been an encouargement towards using the pronoun he in the community. That is a different issue, in my mind.

Hi Dapper-


I have to say that I have felt what Darth brought up (the expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity") in our community. However, it is really important to take this apart and look inside at what is going on and consider one's own insecurities or just unfinished evolvement. Or maybe even personal experiences. Usually, when I do this, I find that so much of what is going on is about me figuring me out. This is where the whole blame-game stuff can get way out of hand.

When it comes down to it, no one can make me into something I don't want to be or do not experience as incongruent.

I wonder, though, if there exists an age variable here. I know that when I was in my teens, 20's and even part of my 30's, social/peer pressure did influence me. Just thinking this over... wanting to be accepted by others we perceive as an ideal or having desired characteristics can be a powerful force.

Yes, the pronoun stuff is another issue.


No, I am not insinuating a thing about butches that transition who are not FtM's or Inter-gendered. I think there is a whole lot of bio-physiological gender explanations (including chromosomal links) that explain this. But, as much as we try, the traditional gender binary keeps poking its ugly head out. And it hurts us all… butches and femmes… the whole damn world of gender designations!

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I saw myself "evolving," as though butch was just the starting point for something bigger and better....

Without being conscious of it, I was completely buying into a butch hierarchy....

There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch.

Pronouns are a matter of preference and a way to demonstrate respect to each other, but they are not the core issue, as Darth eloquently demonstrates with his post.

The above statements are key in terms of what I think of as a core issues in the community - valuing male over female, man over woman, therefore Butch becomes a "starting point" on a journey, inevitably, towards male identity. God - that is painful to even type. It is so totally negating of butch as a whole identity, as a valid female identity. But I think, sadly, it is common. It can be almost unconscious, but it is deeply rooted.

Heart

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hi Dapper-


I have to say that I have felt what Darth brought up (the expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity") in our community. However, it is really important to take this apart and look inside at what is going on and consider one's own insecurities or just unfinished evolvement. Or maybe even personal experiences. Usually, when I do this, I find that so much of what is going on is about me figuring me out. This is where the whole blame-game stuff can get way out of hand.
When it comes down to it, no one can make me into something I don't want to be or do not experience as incongruent.

I wonder, though, if there exists an age variable here. I know that when I was in my teens, 20's and even part of my 30's, social/peer pressure did influence me. Just thinking this over... wanting to be accepted by others we perceive as an ideal or having desired characteristics can be a powerful force.
Yes, the pronoun stuff is another issue.


No, I am not insinuating a thing about butches that transition who are not FtM's or Inter-gendered. I think there is a whole lot of bio-physiological gender explanations (including chromosomal links) that explain this. But, as much as we try, the traditional gender binary keeps poking its ugly head out. And it hurts us all… butches and femmes… the whole damn world of gender designations!

Yes, the first statement is similar to where I was going in my post (one's own self awareness), and your second point I wanted to say also, but couldn't figure out a way to say it well.

Just as I was teasing out the pronoun issue, I also want to tease out the fact that in my posts I am not speaking to the belief often presented that male is valued over female in our community (subsequently, male id butch possibly being valued over female id butch).

Thanks.