"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization? - Page 19

Jett · 05-24-2010, 12:02 PM

I don't think the terms, identities of butch femme are antiquated... they are as current, relevant and modern as what modern day butches and femmes choose to breathe into them.

I see butch, in it's history, as females against the push of the patriarchy refusing to be what they were supposed to be, refusing to wear the assigned clothing, or act in a feminine "role" when they felt otherwise. Proving that female masculinity is as powerful and valid as a males- that it could be owned it in a way that was new and progressive. I feel like this was a very significant bold forward move.

A lot of butches etc. went through hell and some had their lives stolen for standing up to this policing of sex and gender, the rigid confines surrounding them and the social hierarchies.

That said what was antiquated then (and by far more so today) is that policing of masculinity and femininity, giving more credence to male masculinity over female masculinity and automatically assigning feminine behaviors to the word female or woman... that's whats outdated, not to mention sexist backwards and tired.

That said, ironically I hear a lot of newly "masculine queer females" of all identities rebuke "butch" today because of some of the rigid confines of sex and gender they see exercised in the B-F communities, the emphasis put on male masculinity over female, the policing of masculinity and femininity, male and female, butch and femme- ranking and judging people as to "how" butch/femme or "more or less" or through looks- hair, apparel, or simply and probably most ironically sex ID etc.

I've found I mostly can't even argue much with them about a lot of what they see... except that it's not the majority of B-F community doing that, but right some do and as a friend said to me it only takes one person to shitting in a room to stink up the place.

I agree, but I'm hopeful especially in this new day for the community, this new forum will be a progressive modern example. That we'll see less and less of that type of thinking and more gender and sex equality, respect, and full support for all queer identities (human beings)... than I've seen in other B-F places.

Metropolis

imadiva · 05-24-2010, 08:33 PM

Count me in !! I love nothing more than to have the words who's your Daddi whispered in my ear by my favorite butch !! We are all women we just choose to express that in very different ways .. I love butch-femme because it feels like a team very different yet working toward the same dreams and goals. I feel that the beauty is in the tradition. I miss the old school ways when a lady was treated like a lady. I feel like now it's a free for all if they only knew how beautiful it is .....AHHHHH.... If that makes me Antiquated so be it !! Give me a big ol'Butch anytime ..... xoxo

TxBelle · 12-05-2012, 12:54 PM

I find lables helpful. To me, it's like a shopping guide. Example, I want chips. There are an amazing varity within that 'lable', but it helps me find which asile to shop.

*Anya* · 12-05-2012, 03:03 PM

I guess I don't really care if butch/femme are antiquated terms or if it makes me marginalized.

I am a femme.

I am attracted, in every possible way there is, to butch women.

It is as natural to me as breathing.

It just is my life.

puddin' · 12-08-2012, 08:18 PM

i'm butch as, i'm old skool and i make no apologies about it.

i like bein' a colourful boi, too.

i yam what i yam...

Finn · 01-05-2013, 04:16 PM

Hello e/Everyone;
I am an Old School Butch/Daddy and I find it hard to find an Old School Femme/Babygirl lately.. Many claim to be Old School yet at times I've found that "label" not correct for them.. In Massachusetts especially the lack of real Old School Femmes/Babygirls are to me anyways,, non existent..
I love being attentive to my Babygirl and doing things to surprise and make her happy.. One day I hope to find my other half,, and hear her call me Daddy again.. Til then I just do what I do and make every day count *S*..
I wish you a/All the best of the New Year and hope e/Everyone stays warm and safe..
Finn

Ashton · 05-19-2013, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TxBelle

I find lables helpful. To me, it's like a shopping guide. Example, I want chips. There are an amazing varity within that 'lable', but it helps me find which asile to shop.

Well said 'Belle!!

AtLast · 06-01-2013, 03:28 AM

What is marginalizing and rather arrogant is the attempt to re-define or "update" anyone's self- identification. These are not simply terms, they describe human interaction and a dynamic between people of hstorical significance. And this dynamic among women has fought hard for inclusion for many years within the entire LGBTIQ umbrella.

GretaGable · 06-01-2013, 05:50 AM

I feel that each person should label themselves--or not label themselves--exactly as they see fit.

When I first realized my true sexuality, I was worried about not finding acceptance in the gay community because--frankly--I'm a femme attracted to other femmes. I love butches as friends, but there's just something about a pretty, feminine woman who is also strong and intelligent that just wildly attracts me.

Then I got to wondering just how butch or femme I really was. I wear makeup, I love flowers and flowery clothes, have hair past my shoulders, I have my apartment decorated in a distinctly Victorian style (or the Pepto Bismol pink motif, as some would call it), I stink at sports and have the mechanical skills of a tse tse fly. On the other hand I detest clothes shopping, am a fierce feminist in my political beliefs, have a tall, sturdy frame, don't go in for perms or manicures, and prefer comfy but colorful pantsuits over dresses.

Also, I wondered, should I really self-identify as lesbian? In my 20s I had some very passionate sexual and romantic relationships with men--all of whom had long hair and beautiful features.

Even now there are certain male celebs--everyone from actors Emmanuel Delcour, Channing Tatum and the late, great Patrick Swayze to musicians like Andy Biersack and Ashley Purdy from the band Black Veil Brides--that make my heart and other parts go all aflutter. Really, though, the average guy on the street does nothing for me, at least not in a romantic or sexual way.

Ultimately, I realized that all of the time I spent trying to analyze and categorize myself could be better spent toward building my career and character, toward thinking of others instead of focusing on myself. What's most important to me is that I try at all times to be a loving, hardworking, strong and giving person; the rest just kind of falls into place.

Greta

SaltyButch · 06-01-2013, 06:44 PM

Well this is a discussion I have to weigh in on, I am not a fan of labels, yet I find as I discover more about myself certain ones are applicable. I no doubt will give away my age when I say that I identified as gay for many many years and if asked that is the first response I will give. Now that I've come into this dynamic I find that the gentlemanly behaviours I display are known as Old School Butch who knew.

Are these terms marginalizing people or merely helping those who have nothing but a nickname identify those who they may be interested in. On the other hand I find that terms that have survived the test of time may be considered antiquated but they served and continue to serve a purpose.

So I shall gladly raise my hand and say that I am a lesbian butch who is gay and who embraces the b/f dynamic and is Old Fashioned and Old School and dang proud of it.

On a site such as this a "label" is only an introduction, the person is who you want to get to know.

Licious · 06-01-2013, 08:24 PM

I am greatly enjoying this thread.... appreciate everyone weighing in. I see how important it is for us to accept each other for the wonderful variety we bring. I admit there was a time I was brainwashed to be stand offish towards those I didn't understand very well. Now I learn and educate myself, and let love guide the way.

dykeumentary · 06-01-2013, 08:38 PM

Lately I've been enjoying calling myself a homosexual. As in "the same"- I am a woman who is sexual with other women. How did that term become subversive again?
Also it's been fun being an older butch dyke. It makes me smile when I see 20something gender queers sneaking looks at me. Makes me want to get a black cloak and a scythe, and point to them with a bony finger outstretched and pronounce "Yes. I am the Ghost of Lesbian Yet To Come! These are the chains I have forged in this life!" (a la Dickens), Then cackle manically.
I just am tickled every day to be a butch, and thankful every day that Femmes exist who like butch women.

05-24-2010, 12:02 PM	#361
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	I don't think the terms, identities of butch femme are antiquated... they are as current, relevant and modern as what modern day butches and femmes choose to breathe into them. I see butch, in it's history, as females against the push of the patriarchy refusing to be what they were supposed to be, refusing to wear the assigned clothing, or act in a feminine "role" when they felt otherwise. Proving that female masculinity is as powerful and valid as a males- that it could be owned it in a way that was new and progressive. I feel like this was a very significant bold forward move. A lot of butches etc. went through hell and some had their lives stolen for standing up to this policing of sex and gender, the rigid confines surrounding them and the social hierarchies. That said what was antiquated then (and by far more so today) is that policing of masculinity and femininity, giving more credence to male masculinity over female masculinity and automatically assigning feminine behaviors to the word female or woman... that's whats outdated, not to mention sexist backwards and tired. That said, ironically I hear a lot of newly "masculine queer females" of all identities rebuke "butch" today because of some of the rigid confines of sex and gender they see exercised in the B-F communities, the emphasis put on male masculinity over female, the policing of masculinity and femininity, male and female, butch and femme- ranking and judging people as to "how" butch/femme or "more or less" or through looks- hair, apparel, or simply and probably most ironically sex ID etc. I've found I mostly can't even argue much with them about a lot of what they see... except that it's not the majority of B-F community doing that, but right some do and as a friend said to me it only takes one person to shitting in a room to stink up the place. I agree, but I'm hopeful especially in this new day for the community, this new forum will be a progressive modern example. That we'll see less and less of that type of thinking and more gender and sex equality, respect, and full support for all queer identities (human beings)... than I've seen in other B-F places. Metropolis __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus

05-24-2010, 08:33 PM	#362
imadiva Junior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: Honey Relationship Status: Slow and steady ! We are tightly bound ! Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 67 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 112 Thanked 256 Times in 59 Posts Rep Power: 2833945	Antiquated ? Count me in !! I love nothing more than to have the words who's your Daddi whispered in my ear by my favorite butch !! We are all women we just choose to express that in very different ways .. I love butch-femme because it feels like a team very different yet working toward the same dreams and goals. I feel that the beauty is in the tradition. I miss the old school ways when a lady was treated like a lady. I feel like now it's a free for all if they only knew how beautiful it is .....AHHHHH.... If that makes me Antiquated so be it !! Give me a big ol'Butch anytime ..... xoxo

12-05-2012, 03:03 PM	#364
Anya Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Lesbian non-stone femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, her Relationship Status: Committed to being good to myself Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Coast Posts: 8,258 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 39,306 Thanked 40,445 Times in 7,285 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I guess I don't really care if butch/femme are antiquated terms or if it makes me marginalized. I am a femme. I am attracted, in every possible way there is, to butch women. It is as natural to me as breathing. It just is my life. __________________ ~Anya~ Democracy Dies in Darkness ~Washington Post "...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable." UN Human Rights commissioner

12-08-2012, 08:18 PM	#365
puddin' Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: a genderqueer nuisance Preferred Pronoun?: bitchboi Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: new zealand Posts: 7,120 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,467 Thanked 7,962 Times in 2,340 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	i'm butch as, i'm old skool and i make no apologies about it. i like bein' a colourful boi, too. i yam what i yam... __________________ be true, be you, be brave.

01-05-2013, 04:16 PM	#366
Finn Member How Do You Identify?: Old School Butch Preferred Pronoun?: Hy Relationship Status: Me and my lil doggie too.... Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: MA. Where the Skies are Blue and the Mountains are Green.. Posts: 355 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 333 Thanked 262 Times in 112 Posts Rep Power: 1957128	Hello e/Everyone; I am an Old School Butch/Daddy and I find it hard to find an Old School Femme/Babygirl lately.. Many claim to be Old School yet at times I've found that "label" not correct for them.. In Massachusetts especially the lack of real Old School Femmes/Babygirls are to me anyways,, non existent.. I love being attentive to my Babygirl and doing things to surprise and make her happy.. One day I hope to find my other half,, and hear her call me Daddy again.. Til then I just do what I do and make every day count S.. I wish you a/All the best of the New Year and hope e/Everyone stays warm and safe.. Finn __________________ “To change in meaningful ways, we must become conscious of Ego and how it shapes our narratives, thus behavior over time."- Albert Einstein “Anyone can become angry – that is easy, but to be angry with the right person at the right time and for the right purpose and in the right way – that is not within everyone’s power and that is not easy.” - Aristotle "Against logic there is no armor like ignorance." —Laurence Peter

12-05-2012, 12:54 PM	#363
TxBelle Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: she, her, etc Relationship Status: single Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Based in Austin area, TX. I travel a lot. Posts: 298 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 85 Thanked 133 Times in 45 Posts Rep Power: 197685	I find lables helpful. To me, it's like a shopping guide. Example, I want chips. There are an amazing varity within that 'lable', but it helps me find which asile to shop.

06-01-2013, 03:28 AM	#368
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,827 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	What is marginalizing and rather arrogant is the attempt to re-define or "update" anyone's self- identification. These are not simply terms, they describe human interaction and a dynamic between people of hstorical significance. And this dynamic among women has fought hard for inclusion for many years within the entire LGBTIQ umbrella.

06-01-2013, 05:50 AM	#369
GretaGable Junior Member How Do You Identify?: Xena femme Relationship Status: Single Join Date: May 2013 Location: Florida Posts: 16 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4 Thanked 56 Times in 14 Posts Rep Power: 1319531	Butch/Femme I feel that each person should label themselves--or not label themselves--exactly as they see fit. When I first realized my true sexuality, I was worried about not finding acceptance in the gay community because--frankly--I'm a femme attracted to other femmes. I love butches as friends, but there's just something about a pretty, feminine woman who is also strong and intelligent that just wildly attracts me. Then I got to wondering just how butch or femme I really was. I wear makeup, I love flowers and flowery clothes, have hair past my shoulders, I have my apartment decorated in a distinctly Victorian style (or the Pepto Bismol pink motif, as some would call it), I stink at sports and have the mechanical skills of a tse tse fly. On the other hand I detest clothes shopping, am a fierce feminist in my political beliefs, have a tall, sturdy frame, don't go in for perms or manicures, and prefer comfy but colorful pantsuits over dresses. Also, I wondered, should I really self-identify as lesbian? In my 20s I had some very passionate sexual and romantic relationships with men--all of whom had long hair and beautiful features. Even now there are certain male celebs--everyone from actors Emmanuel Delcour, Channing Tatum and the late, great Patrick Swayze to musicians like Andy Biersack and Ashley Purdy from the band Black Veil Brides--that make my heart and other parts go all aflutter. Really, though, the average guy on the street does nothing for me, at least not in a romantic or sexual way. Ultimately, I realized that all of the time I spent trying to analyze and categorize myself could be better spent toward building my career and character, toward thinking of others instead of focusing on myself. What's most important to me is that I try at all times to be a loving, hardworking, strong and giving person; the rest just kind of falls into place. Greta

06-01-2013, 06:44 PM	#370
SaltyButch Member How Do You Identify?: Old School Butch Preferred Pronoun?: he/she/hey you..... Relationship Status: open to the possibilities Tournaments Won: 5 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: mississauga ontario canada Posts: 345 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 432 Thanked 1,633 Times in 301 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Well this is a discussion I have to weigh in on, I am not a fan of labels, yet I find as I discover more about myself certain ones are applicable. I no doubt will give away my age when I say that I identified as gay for many many years and if asked that is the first response I will give. Now that I've come into this dynamic I find that the gentlemanly behaviours I display are known as Old School Butch who knew. Are these terms marginalizing people or merely helping those who have nothing but a nickname identify those who they may be interested in. On the other hand I find that terms that have survived the test of time may be considered antiquated but they served and continue to serve a purpose. So I shall gladly raise my hand and say that I am a lesbian butch who is gay and who embraces the b/f dynamic and is Old Fashioned and Old School and dang proud of it. On a site such as this a "label" is only an introduction, the person is who you want to get to know.

06-01-2013, 08:24 PM	#371
Licious Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: she, her Relationship Status: single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: California Posts: 686 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,502 Thanked 1,971 Times in 546 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I am greatly enjoying this thread.... appreciate everyone weighing in. I see how important it is for us to accept each other for the wonderful variety we bring. I admit there was a time I was brainwashed to be stand offish towards those I didn't understand very well. Now I learn and educate myself, and let love guide the way. __________________ Don’t be satisfied with stories, how things have gone with others. Unfold your own myth. ~Rumi

06-01-2013, 08:38 PM	#372
dykeumentary Member How Do You Identify?: butch dyke Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 449 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 341 Thanked 1,548 Times in 359 Posts Rep Power: 19160663	Lately I've been enjoying calling myself a homosexual. As in "the same"- I am a woman who is sexual with other women. How did that term become subversive again? Also it's been fun being an older butch dyke. It makes me smile when I see 20something gender queers sneaking looks at me. Makes me want to get a black cloak and a scythe, and point to them with a bony finger outstretched and pronounce "Yes. I am the Ghost of Lesbian Yet To Come! These are the chains I have forged in this life!" (a la Dickens), Then cackle manically. I just am tickled every day to be a butch, and thankful every day that Femmes exist who like butch women.