Third or Other Gender Butch

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Thank you! My eyes, I tell ya. I can see it with my...cough...bifocals, but did not have them on and thought that part was your sig line.

Yeay! Validation.

May start another thread....another day when my brain is working better.

[Jett]

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

[Corkey]

If someone drops being your friend because you speak up about who you are, they weren't your friend to begin with. YOU I will always call friend, and I'd be proud to say I got yer back any day of the week, NO matter how you identify.

[Daywalker]

Thanks for the raw n honest post Met.

What you have described is like being caught in a color wheel.

Sometimes folks are trying to turn it to the color they
want for you, and it gets stuck...so you end up having
to push harder to get it to move forward again
until it lands on Your color.


Heh, I think mine got stuck on Psychedelic...and I like it there.


Either way, strength can only be measured from the inside out.
Your inner strength stood the test of your own transformation.


Amen n Pass the Koolaid

[DapperButch]

[quote=Metropolis;68756]


So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

[AtLast]

[quote=DapperButch;68844]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

Actually, I don't think you should get flack either! Loss of friendship makes me deeply sad because a true friend recognizes when someone is speaking their truth and respects this even if they disagree.

Yes, Dapper, it hurts more when it comes from our own space.. hurts terribly.

Personally, Met, you RAWK! You are willing to take yourself to task with things that are just not easy and be open about it. Looks like good character to me!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't! Oh yes, those winces, etc. And then there are the fence-sitting digs. The problem is that any kind of a fence or blockade to one's gender identity is what is really wrong. And then there is that line drawn in the sand.. and the silence from those that just can't accept that for some of us, none of this is clear-cut and I can't imagine not taking a look at male vs masculine or female vs feminine as well as TG vs 3G, Pan-genderism, etc. and female or male as other or to be determined (theory evolves).. And the core problem remains with the traditional constructs of the binary!! The constructs are the problem, not the terms.

Please just live your life without that damn veneer!

[Jett]

Yeah I think there was a bit of shell shock going around but for the most part it seems it's all good now I think.

I'm pretty occupied today (sick kit kat and a deadline on some works) but I just wanted to get at least make sure I got that in.

BBL
Metropolis

[Gryph]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

Yep, makes lots of sense to me.
I do understand the internal fighting of am I male or am I female. When I was 13 I wanted to be a boy, because of a crush I had on an older girl.
Fast forward to High School and the uncomfortable feeling I had in trying to play girl, even though I was one of the rough neck kids...tackle frisbee comes to mind. Having a boyfriend, because all the females of that time had boyfriends. Even if they really didn't want them.
Until I came out at age 30, I was still not femme even though I had stopped thinking of transitioning, I really didn't want the man body either.
It took me several years after that to figure out that I'm just fine in a female body and being the weird, cool kid, who can work and do just as much as most males.

*posting when tired is a dangerous thing. Hope this makes some semblance of sense*

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

I second that!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Met:

I'm trying to get one or either of my friends to sart a thread on the other-gendered femme. Both felt so burned on the dist site that they are just not feeling comfortable to do so .... yet! I don't feel very well-read or knowledgeable to start one and I also feel like it just isn't my place to.

Your bring up the fact that other-genderism, plus has been a part of history for eons is so much of what has helped me in learning about gender today. Native North American (as well as South Native American take on gender (especially 2-Spirit) has given me a sort of peaceful sense about gender - even in the midst of so much friction that I think our community has gone through. Even with having a couple of very long-time friends from childhood (yikes, back to the 1950's) and an intergendered cousin (in her 70's, but we have only recently re-connected due to nut-so-way-cucko family issues), the study of gender theory and and application to so much of what I feel about myself and other people remains stiffled sometimes.

As I've said before, I feel fortunate to have gender issues be part of my lifetime. Guess its about un-locking doors. Especially legal protection doors. And just not being stuck in a box that I think a lot of us (butch, femme, TG, everyone have been held back within. As I watch my 2 grand daughters grow-up, I am seeing that they are not stuck in the same box and it makes me very happy! The younger one seems like a budding other-female to me, or maybe another form of evolving gender identities. Mainly, I want her and all kids to not go through what a hell of a lot of people here have. It helps too that she doesn't live in a place as open as I do because maybe things are changing outside of our more urban and open locations!One can only hope!

[Darth Denkay]

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

[BullDog]

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.