Third or Other Gender Butch

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Thank you! My eyes, I tell ya. I can see it with my...cough...bifocals, but did not have them on and thought that part was your sig line.

Yeay! Validation.

May start another thread....another day when my brain is working better.

[Jett]

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

[Corkey]

If someone drops being your friend because you speak up about who you are, they weren't your friend to begin with. YOU I will always call friend, and I'd be proud to say I got yer back any day of the week, NO matter how you identify.

[Daywalker]

Thanks for the raw n honest post Met.

What you have described is like being caught in a color wheel.

Sometimes folks are trying to turn it to the color they
want for you, and it gets stuck...so you end up having
to push harder to get it to move forward again
until it lands on Your color.


Heh, I think mine got stuck on Psychedelic...and I like it there.


Either way, strength can only be measured from the inside out.
Your inner strength stood the test of your own transformation.


Amen n Pass the Koolaid

[DapperButch]

[quote=Metropolis;68756]


So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

[AtLast]

[quote=DapperButch;68844]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.


Losing friends over it is just damn crazy. You know, when you wrote that post I thought to myself, that took some serious guts. And I also wondered if you would get any flack about it, but I never imagined that you would lose friends over it. That is not who a friend is, Met. Corkey is right. A simple concept, but so true. A friend accepts us for who we are, not who they want or need us to be. I would think that this would be something that all of us queers would have learned by now. I am sorry this happened to you.


However, at the same time, maybe they just need to take a step back and then will come forward again (you indicated that it wasn't really a confrontation, just "not talking"...maybe avoidance of conversation)? Dunno. Just an additional thought...

Actually, I don't think you should get flack either! Loss of friendship makes me deeply sad because a true friend recognizes when someone is speaking their truth and respects this even if they disagree.

Yes, Dapper, it hurts more when it comes from our own space.. hurts terribly.

Personally, Met, you RAWK! You are willing to take yourself to task with things that are just not easy and be open about it. Looks like good character to me!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Ok... I think I need to get rid of some well worn baggage and I'm just going to dump it here apparently.

For years I identified outwardly as Female ID Butch, and though I tried to be this I always had a wince reaction when I said it... and looking back in that feeling I was naggingly compelled every time (and I did 99% of the time) to follow with a "just to add" disclaimer that to me it only meant "being female bodied" (seriously I bet I've said that 100 times).

The few times I tried to identify with being a "woman" the wince was tripled, and again pretty much every time came with even longer disclaimers like "to me it means adult female"... "it doesn't mean... blah blah blah".... never felt like enough disclaimers, and definitely contradicting my whole point with them anyway I'm sure.

I knew I was doing it and knew it felt wrong, but really I wouldn't let go of it (the "identity"). Though through the years I'd many times discussed being GQ/TG/3G whatever, when I finally did start a thread like a year ago about not being of a binary gender and being a 3rdG and not ID'ing as female it felt like peaceful truth, even know it felt like having to suck up everything I ever said about my "ID" it didn't matter because it was right.

I did get fairly "worked over" by several friends privately who felt I wasn't seeing all a woman could be, but I was seeing that concept... just for me it wasn't applicable and really had ironically been a stumbling block in the first place. Hell it was what I kept trying to tell myself for years... "Oh you're just having trouble seeing all you can be as a woman/female" and using that as an excuse for not feeling like one, and kept me from having to face my own nagging doubts (maybe internal transphobia).

And... a while after some more internal stubbornness and bullshittery to myself started me slowly back-peddling again away from 3rdG/etc... stupid yep... really I don't know why but it had been a struggle for me to absorb.

Then I kind of got knocked into stopping the bullshitting myself. In starting a thread for Female and Women Butches, pushing OP submit button and immediately it just felt like all those "winces" swelled up ten times their size and punched me in the gut. And every post after, though I believed in "the cause" it felt like posing. Just like the veneer got too heavy and dropped... hell I had trouble sleeping. It wasn't any sudden revelation but more an internal "jeezus cripes just stop fucking kidding yourself". So I basically just spilled the facts there and pretty sure I lost some friends (if stopping talking to me is any indicator lol) but I get it and figured as much.

I've always been really proud of who I am as a person in this context, and I still am... I'm the exact same person... just minus the veneer, and actually living my life.

Ok... back to the regularly scheduled program.

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

Damned if we do and damned if we don't! Oh yes, those winces, etc. And then there are the fence-sitting digs. The problem is that any kind of a fence or blockade to one's gender identity is what is really wrong. And then there is that line drawn in the sand.. and the silence from those that just can't accept that for some of us, none of this is clear-cut and I can't imagine not taking a look at male vs masculine or female vs feminine as well as TG vs 3G, Pan-genderism, etc. and female or male as other or to be determined (theory evolves).. And the core problem remains with the traditional constructs of the binary!! The constructs are the problem, not the terms.

Please just live your life without that damn veneer!

[Jett]

Yeah I think there was a bit of shell shock going around but for the most part it seems it's all good now I think.

I'm pretty occupied today (sick kit kat and a deadline on some works) but I just wanted to get at least make sure I got that in.

BBL
Metropolis

[Greyson]

Met, for a few years now I have been reading many of your posts. I am always drawn in by your words and thoughts.

I too have struggled internally with very similar feelings and thoughts. The struggle really heated up when I made the decision to transition. I do feel more at peace now but I wince each time I correct people to call me "He." It's true, I do prefer He when given the only binary option of he or she. However, I am neither.

For me when I state I am a Transman or a Transmasculine Butch it more clearly says who I believe myself to be. Thanks for keeping this discussion going and doing it with authenticity, patience and vulnerability.

[Toughy]

Met my friend.........

fuck 'em ........

be who you are.....we all have many twists and turns as we walk in this world.......the good and the painful........I figure we learn from everything that happens......change really is not a bad thing........I would much rather be a person who is grows than a person who never grows.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Met, for a few years now I have been reading many of your posts. I am always drawn in by your words and thoughts.

I too have struggled internally with very similar feelings and thoughts. The struggle really heated up when I made the decision to transition. I do feel more at peace now but I wince each time I correct people to call me "He." It's true, I do prefer He when given the only binary option of he or she. However, I am neither.

For me when I state I am a Transman or a Transmasculine Butch it more clearly says who I believe myself to be. Thanks for keeping this discussion going and doing it with authenticity, patience and vulnerability.

I can say the same thing reading your thoughts over the years Greyson, and I'm glad you chimed in here.

Definitely hear you on the pronouns too, I've used Hy Hys Hym online for many years trying to at least indicate that "middle" feeling, but really don't get worked up over other pronouns.

My lady always called me "she" when we first met, but now she alternates them though I've never requested her to use any in particular, seems they just pop out back and forth at random (at first she said she surprised herself in doing so). It doesn't bother me, somehow seems like a kind of odd subconscious acknowledgment that she does see that genderqueer-ness in me.

Metro

[Gryph]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

Yep, makes lots of sense to me.
I do understand the internal fighting of am I male or am I female. When I was 13 I wanted to be a boy, because of a crush I had on an older girl.
Fast forward to High School and the uncomfortable feeling I had in trying to play girl, even though I was one of the rough neck kids...tackle frisbee comes to mind. Having a boyfriend, because all the females of that time had boyfriends. Even if they really didn't want them.
Until I came out at age 30, I was still not femme even though I had stopped thinking of transitioning, I really didn't want the man body either.
It took me several years after that to figure out that I'm just fine in a female body and being the weird, cool kid, who can work and do just as much as most males.

*posting when tired is a dangerous thing. Hope this makes some semblance of sense*

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

I second that!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.

Met:

I'm trying to get one or either of my friends to sart a thread on the other-gendered femme. Both felt so burned on the dist site that they are just not feeling comfortable to do so .... yet! I don't feel very well-read or knowledgeable to start one and I also feel like it just isn't my place to.

Your bring up the fact that other-genderism, plus has been a part of history for eons is so much of what has helped me in learning about gender today. Native North American (as well as South Native American take on gender (especially 2-Spirit) has given me a sort of peaceful sense about gender - even in the midst of so much friction that I think our community has gone through. Even with having a couple of very long-time friends from childhood (yikes, back to the 1950's) and an intergendered cousin (in her 70's, but we have only recently re-connected due to nut-so-way-cucko family issues), the study of gender theory and and application to so much of what I feel about myself and other people remains stiffled sometimes.

As I've said before, I feel fortunate to have gender issues be part of my lifetime. Guess its about un-locking doors. Especially legal protection doors. And just not being stuck in a box that I think a lot of us (butch, femme, TG, everyone have been held back within. As I watch my 2 grand daughters grow-up, I am seeing that they are not stuck in the same box and it makes me very happy! The younger one seems like a budding other-female to me, or maybe another form of evolving gender identities. Mainly, I want her and all kids to not go through what a hell of a lot of people here have. It helps too that she doesn't live in a place as open as I do because maybe things are changing outside of our more urban and open locations!One can only hope!