Men with boobs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

I'm confused. It seems that there is a flow between both femme Zone & Butch Zone threads. Thinking that BDSM specific and Trans Zones have threads in which everyone is invited to ask questions or get info. Right?

If someone comes into a thread that has a specific slant to it and is not that slant.... and just wants to mess with people, that's one thing. I certainly have taken in a lot with comments by femme's in this thread and MIB/Trans/IG folks. The thread did begin with a FIB slant, but, all of the differing thoughts from people no matter their ID has certainly been positive as far as I am concerned. Sure, some rough bumps, but, I think this has been a good conversation overall and respectful of some sensitive stuff. hell, i've benn smacked around on threads before. And sometimes deserved just that.

Then again, I am a peace-maker type... role since birth! Yikes, my Mom used to tell me I should be in work in some diplomatic capacity.... Mamma Mia!

Am I not understanding what is going on? Sorry, on pain meds.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"

It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

Just an FYI...butches have come over and posted in the femme continuum thread (where some of this threads postings are being discussed). They've been (rather nicely) asked to stay on the topic, but no one is asking them to exit or giving them an earful that I can see.

[Heart]

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Heart

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

Heart, I do agree with you that fixating on pronouns does avoid the deeper issues. However, calling butches He/Hy as a default is a symptom of the underlying issues in my opinion. Butches are still be equated to or compared to male. To me it doesn't feel privileged to assert that I am She. Apparently people think being She'd emasculates a male identified person.

I have in my sig- She is not just a pronoun choice. Yes, it is the larger issues.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

If I'm not mistaken this thread is actually where all conversations being referred to in other threads originated. So why is it "super obnoxious" to draw attention here about what's being said there about said about this thread?

Is it "super obnoxious" to have brought shit from here over there? Is that passive aggressive? Have you called that out?

I mean truth, I personally don't really care that it was brought to another thread... I see that as cross posting.

But I do know that had Bull gone over there (or Dylan or me etc.) and complained (even about the "bring shit over there") it probably would have been portrayed (by a few not ALL) "the men folk" trying to control "the women folk"... which I find to be pretty insulting and painting butches and trans as stupid self-important knuckle dragging clods.

Not that I haven't seen that on occasion but I've seen that and more from all identities *shrugs*

One last thing, a probably the most important reason I'm even replying to your post. I met Bulldog for the first time last week at a party... and Bull actually kept cracking me up, one of the reasons? She was smiling and laughing so damn much... made me wanna laugh too.

Wasn't like one of those "not happy unless unhappy" people at all.

Done derailing, be great to see this convo get back on track.
Metro

[BullDog]

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

Oml... I'd definitely bring my earplugs... just in case you won...

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....

Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....
Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,

Thank you Snowy...this is what I have been saying in all the threads (you too!)

[BullDog]

Snowy thank you. Some of these issues I've been talking about online for 10 years. I do get frustrated at times when it seems we've made little ground or had a long discussion in a thread and lots of people don't seem to understand what the hell we are even talking about.

Time for me to go chill and do my work.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

[SuperFemme]

emasculate: weaken somebody or something: to deprive somebody or something of effectiveness, spirit, or force

eta: it can also mean to castrate, which is not the intent with which I used it.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

Used as a verb, emasculate means to castrate or weaken or deprive of strength. Used as an adjective it means deprived of strength or vigor. Except in the one noun form the word can be used in connection with male/female or masculine/feminine. I believe this word is often misused to mean undermining masculinity in some way or form or making a person feel not masculine enough. I think this is an incorrect use of the word. I think in its present day use and connotations, the word emasculate is also misogynistic. Its similar to calling someone a "girl" or a "pansy" or a "fairy" or "prissy" or a "pussy" all words used to make men feel less than men (hence women, hence less than, inferior, or substandard). Once men and women are truly perceived as equals perhaps the whole need for gendered pronouns will disappear altogether and perhaps we can have just one pronoun for everyone. The gendering of language takes us back to the binaries and the binaries always place the feminized term at the bottom as somehow weaker and less than.

So for example, If I expressed my desire to be refered to with the male pronounn he, and someone insisted on using the female pronoun she, I would think of them as rude and disrespectful , but I would not feel emasculated. And vice versa. If I prefer the female pronoun she but someone insisted on using he, I would also not feel emasculated.

Rufus

[Medusa]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

[SuperFemme]

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

Yes, I would find a thread like this interesting. Language controls our reality and perceptions and hence controls us. Once we know how language works we are in a better position to unpack it and all the gendering that undermines us as men, women, trans, queer, gay straight and on and on

Rufus

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus