Men with boobs.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

I don't know about the Male ID/she commentary, but I DO know that some of the people who posted in here about pronouns are now in that thread posting about how they didn't like the answers they got when they posted over here in this thread. That looks pretty P/A, no? I mean, it looks pretty P/A to me.

So...what? It's ok to join into a conversation in one thread, and drag it into another thread if you don't like the answer in the first thread, but if someone brings it up in the original thread, they're the asshole?

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

The pronoun convo started over here. Pissing and moaning in another thread, cuz you didn't like the answer you got over here is P/A.


Keepin' It Real,
Dylan

[apretty]

the forum needs a butt-zone.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

Wow, can't see the forest for the trees. The assumptions behind the pronouns has everything to do with it. Why would She be emasculating if females are masculine too? It's definitely disrespecting a person's pronoun, but why emasculating? I believe that would be a question for male identified people.

It's past my bed time. Nitey night all.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

But But But, Potty...not everyone's as EZ goin' as you. And butches have already been accused of tossing their privilege around in this thread right here for voicing their upset about the pronoun issue. So, I just want to make sure I got it right...bear with me...voice your upset that others are picking your pronoun for you, get accused of tossing privilege around (even if you're female/woman). Waltz into a thread where some folks decided to drag the conversation (so they didn't have to hear anymore about how their excuses are offensive), and get accused of tossing privilege around (and trust me...after many years on these sites, I've played my fair share of these games and been told many many times, "It's not all about you, Dylan...femmes are talking...this is a femme thread")

The male ID'd butch being she'd incident you speak of would depend on context and the individual, no? (honestly, I have no idea which conversation this is)


Dylan

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

Just an FYI...butches have come over and posted in the femme continuum thread (where some of this threads postings are being discussed). They've been (rather nicely) asked to stay on the topic, but no one is asking them to exit or giving them an earful that I can see.

[Heart]

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Heart

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

Heart, I do agree with you that fixating on pronouns does avoid the deeper issues. However, calling butches He/Hy as a default is a symptom of the underlying issues in my opinion. Butches are still be equated to or compared to male. To me it doesn't feel privileged to assert that I am She. Apparently people think being She'd emasculates a male identified person.

I have in my sig- She is not just a pronoun choice. Yes, it is the larger issues.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Heart

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

[Dylan]

And here's something else.

No one is *attacking* femmes

No one is putting *more burden* on femmes to remember something

Personally, I see this behavior MORE from femmes than I do butches. Other butches have stated the same thing. Some femmes have stated the same thing.

In a previous post, I mentioned a party and FIB who kept referring to MIB butches as 'she'. The FIB butch was constantly referred to as 'he'. When she stated it was disrespectful to FIBs to use 'he', and that it didn't create a 'welcoming' atmosphere for FIBs, she was told not to come back...that the party was indeed 'welcoming' to all. Another FIB was told the same thing when she complained about it. Subsequent FIB butches who brought up the same thing were also not 'welcomed' back, and they were in fact, mocked for saying it wasn't welcoming to FIBs. So, FIBs are expected to conform or be excommunicated from the group? NOT ONLY are they expected to be mindful of MIB's pronouns, they're also expected to accept being he'd. If they don't conform, they're not welcome to return?

And yet, somehow, we're being told 'femmes are being punished more than butches who 'screw up'...really? Because butches who don't comply aren't welcome in the (so called) 'community'.

I've watched for many years as new butches who started as she end up becoming he...because they know if they don't comply, they'll be ousted from the group.

Saying anything about this issue brings either a 'sigh and a shrug with a giggle and a whatever', or a 'don't come back'.

And to be 100% clear, I, personally, am NOT talking about honest mistakes. I, personally, am talking about PURPOSEFUL, INTENTIONAL misassignment of pronouns. I have a feeling that's what other butches are talking about also. If someone new 'she's' me, I'm likely to correct them, and move on. If they continue to do it, we're gonna have some words. If they switch up my pronoun depending on what conversation they're having, because they either do or don't want to be outed, or whatever other lame excuse they come up with, we're not going to be speaking anymore.


Dylan

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Dylan

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

My context is much MUCH broader than you are aware of Dylan, and has zip to do with femmes being attacked. In much of the world, the very idea of getting to assert one's gender is so beyond the pale that its unthinkable. Asserting one's sexuality, orientation, etc can result in imprisonment, rape, or death. So yes, the fact that we are having any kind of discussion about asserting our preferred gender pronouns is a privilege.

And by-the-way, there are femmes that prefer pronouns other than "she" and their assertion is also privileged. Every single one of us here, femme, butch, trans, male, female, has the pronoun-assertion privilege that I am referring to. This exists alongside the ongoing issues of sexism and misogyny that also get played out here (and have, I believe, a particular impact on butch women). It's not an either/or thing.