OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by persiphone

i've come to the conclusion that i'm against the idea of having to get a (or 47) permit(s) to protest. free speech and freedom to assemble has become a victim to overpermitization. (is that a word?) especially in areas that the public pays for. it's a little ridiculous and it's the grounds Naomi was arrested on.

about the name. i understand the issue with the name. however, i couldn't care less if they called it Shit On A Stick, as long as it invokes positive changes.

Here is their permit.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Moving on.

[SoNotHer]

From Zinn's A People's History of the United States -

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defc...nselhel15.html

These people were becoming "dangerous," as Steinbeck said. The spirit of rebellion was growing. Mauritz Hallgren, in a 1933 book, Seeds of Revolt, compiled newspaper reports of things happening around the country:

England, Arkansas, January 3, 1931. The long drought that ruined hundreds of Arkansas farms last summer had a dramatic sequel late today when some 500 farmers, most of them white men and many of them armed, marched on the business section of this town. .. . Shouting that they must have food for themselves and their families, the invaders announced their intention to take it from the stores unless it were provided from some other source without cost.

Detroit, July 9, 1931. An incipient riot by 500 unemployed men turned out of the city lodging house for lack of funds was quelled by police reserves in Cadillac Square tonight. . ..

Indiana Harbor, Indiana, August 5, 1931. Fifteen hundred jobless men stormed the plant of the Fruit Growers Express Company here, demanding that they be given jobs to keep from starving. The company's answer was to call the city police, who routed the jobless with menacing clubs.

Boston, November 10, 1931. Twenty persons were treated for injuries, three were hurt so seriously that they may die, and dozens of others were nursing wounds from flying bottles, lead pipe, and stones after clashes between striking longshoremen and Negro strikebreakers along the Charlestown-East Boston waterfront.

Detroit, November 28, 1931. A mounted patrolman was hit on the head with a stone and unhorsed and one demonstrator was arrested during a disturbance in Grand Circus Park this morning when 2000 men and women met there in defiance of police orders.

Chicago, April 1, 1932. Five hundred school children, most with haggard faces and in tattered clothes, paraded through Chicago's downtown section to the Board of Education offices to demand that the school system provide them with food.

Boston, June 3, 1932. Twenty-five hungry children raided a buffet lunch set up for Spanish War veterans during a Boston parade. Two automobile-loads of police were called to drive them away.

New York, January 21, 1933. Several hundred jobless surrounded a restaurant just off Union Square today demanding they be fed without charge.. . .

Seattle, February 16, 1933. A two-day siege of the County-City Building, occupied by an army of about 5,000 unemployed, was ended early tonight, deputy sheriffs and police evicting the demonstrators after nearly two hours of efforts.

Yip Harburg, the songwriter, told Studs Terkel about the year 1932: "I was walking along the street at that time, and you'd see the bread lines. The biggest one in New York City was owned by William Randolph Hearst. He had a big truck with several people on it, and big cauldrons of hot soup, bread. Fellows with burlap on their feet were lined up all around Columbus Circle, and went for blocks and blocks around the park, waiting." Harburg had to write a song for the show Americana. He wrote "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?"

Once in khaki suits.

Gee, we looked swell,

Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum.

Half a million boots went sloggin' through Hell,

I was the kid with the drum.

Say, don't you remember, they called me Al-

It was Al all the time.

Say, don't you remember I'm your pal-

Brother, can you spare a dime?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I just want to say that it seems like its just a handful of us who are regular posters in this thread, which saddens me. I wish we could get a lot more participation, because this movement is about ALL of us. Perhaps we can each pm our friends and invite them to join us here and participate?

Drew:

My reasons for being uncharacteristically quiet on this thread are covered pretty well in this post at HuffPo by the law professor Lawrence Lessig:

[begin his words]
Here's the fact about America: It takes an insanely large majority to make any fundamental change. You want Citizens United reversed, it is going to take 75% of states to do it. You want public funding of public elections? It's going to take 67 Senators to get it. You want to end the corruption that makes it impossible to get any of the things liberals push? It's going to take a broad based movement that cuts across factions, whether right (as in correct) or Right (as in not Left).

It's great to rally the 99%. It is a relief to have such a clear and powerful slogan. But explain this, because I'm a lawyer, and not so great with numbers: Gallup's latest poll finds 41% of Americans who call themselves "conservative." 36% call themselves "moderate." Liberals account for 21%. In a different poll, Gallup finds 30% of Americans who "support" the Tea Party.

So who exactly are we not allowed to work with, Dave? 30% of America? 41% of America? All but 21% of America? And when you exclude 30%, or 41%, or 79% of Americans, how exactly are you left with 99%?

Talk about wanting to have it "both ways"! How can you claim to speak for 99% but refuse to talk to 30%? (And just to be clear: the 30% of Americans who support the Tea Party are not the 1% "superrich." I checked. With a calculator.)

And finally as to one of the commentators on Dave's essay who finds me "poisonous," and said I said: "OWS needs to drop the 'We are the 99%' slogan because it might hurt the feelings of the rich." What I said was not that the movement should give up the slogan 99% because it offended. I said it should instead talk about the 99.95%. That's the percentage of Americans who did not max out in giving in the last Congressional election. That is the percentage that becomes invisible in the money-feeding-fest that is DC.

So if you really want to rally the 99%, you might begin by identifying those things that 99% might actually agree about. That the 30% of Americans who call themselves "supporters" of the Tea Party are racists is not a statement likely to garner the support of at least that 30%. (And again, as ABC found, it's not even true).

On the other hand, 99% of America should be perfectly willing to agree that a system in which the top 1% -- or better, .05% -- have more power to direct public policy than do the 99% or 99.95% is wrong. And must be changed. Before this nation can again call itself a democracy (for those on the Left) or a Republic (for those on the Right). This "Republic," by which the Framers meant a "representative democracy," by which they intended a body "dependent upon the People ALONE," is not.

That, too, must change. Meaning, in addition to all the things we Liberals want, we must change that as well. And my view is that if we changed that corruption first, we might actually find it a bit easier to get those other things too.

[end his words]
-----------------------

I am a Liberal but I'm a Liberal that does not believe I am living on 'occupied' land. I am living on land taken by conquest over a century ago but that cannot be changed and so to call America 'occupied' land is to make me a foreigner in my own country, the only country my family has known since at least the early 19th century. I've read a number of OWS statements that were decidedly anti-capitalist. Some of the stuff at People of Color Organize invokes the 'petty bourgeois' and speaks of destroying capitalism. This turns me off for two reasons.

As a college educated professional, I am the 'petty bourgeois' which has to be 'swept aside' in order for the poor and working-class to be free. Secondly, there is simply no way to have a *socialist* society without seriously restricting freedom and liberty. We can have social democracy but we cannot have socialism. I have also noted that skeptical or dissenting voices are written off not caring or being fine with the ways things are. I think that people of goodwill can disagree with certain rhetorical flourishes (presuming that the people using that rhetoric mean it) while still agreeing that the system is skewed toward the rich and that this creates injustice which leads to instability.

I don't want to create a socialist utopia because I know of no better way to create a dystopia than to try to create a utopia. I would argue that one of the causes of our current suffering is that the Right has been pursuing a libertarian utopia. I want to create a society where someone who is born into poverty can get an education, find themselves a job, work their way up a career ladder and perhaps retire as solidly middle-class. I want to *expand* the ranks of the 'petty bourgeois' not see them swept away.

Right now, I'm seeing the Left talk to the Left and only certain segments of the Left at that! I do not see anything that leads me to believe that people of the Right (of which I am not) are welcome nor have I heard or read anything here to make me believe that Liberals (as opposed to radicals) are at all welcome, that our voices would be heard, that our ideas would be given due consideration, or that our experiences would be considered at all worth listening to. I might be wrong but I've been reading this thread since the very beginning and I don't see a great deal that leads me to believe otherwise.

Lessig is right, we are the 99% is a great slogan. The problem is is that there isn't a concerted effort to bring most of that 99% into the fold.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

I identify with and agree with the protesters on pretty much all I've heard, though I haven't followed the protests closely enough to offer any insights here that haven't already been offered.

I think the term "Occupy" wasn't the best term due to US history and present of occupation.

It doesn't surprise me that some groups are more organized than others. Protests often inconvenience people - but I don't think I'd mind much if I were inconvenienced. (Not a single Occupy Temple protestor, I'm afraid).

I've been to protests that last an evening - maybe a late-afternoon til midnight. In those cases, all I had to do was show up (in Sacramento, protesting Prop 8 just after it was passed). These were not super-planned, but they weren't forever-protests. We went home, went to bed, and went about our business the next day. I'm impressed people are able to hold out so long. These sort of protests taking place require a support network - not just people who show up. My impression is the original protest was extremely well-planned, and probably has the most *professional* protestors. (I have a few friends who - though neither would claim the title - would qualify as professional. They are a bit snotty when regular folks attempt to protest - with no experience, no direction, etc. Anyway, they know the drill, they know what they'll need, they know to pick up after themselves, they are super-trained for dealing with cops, they understand the resources for support, the network of couches to surf, lawyers willing to support them if needed. They are well-practiced and well-trained). Anyway, I think regular folks just show up and there is no training and no preparation - and that's okay if you're talking about an afternoon or evening of protest. If protestors need more support in some areas, then they need more support.

I hope I'm making sense - I just woke up. I wanted to write last night, but ended up reading and watching the youtubes posted here. It was nice to hear Naomi Wolf talk - haven't heard her in a while.

I took a sociology class in college - "the sociology of deviance." I thought it was going to be nice and juicy, but instead the entire class focused on corporate deviance with an eye to Enron. I found the reading extreeeeemely tedious. But, I'm glad now I took the class. I wish I'd retained more of what I read. I am glad so many people can be so motivated for such a long period of time to protest what has been a long history of corporate crime, violation and injury at the expense of those who can least recover from it.

I hear alarm bells with people switching their banks on November 5th. When I think of masses of people withdrawing money from a bank, when you know they don't have the cash at hand to pay for it, it just reminds me of that Mary Poppins scene about the run on the bank. I am somewhat concerned that certain actions could plunge us into a (worse) depression and there might be a certain element of cutting-off-our-noses-to-spite-our-faces going on. The banks deserve it, but I do wonder what the long-term ramifications will be for people.

I think it's shitty anywhere it's illegal to be homeless.

I feel like you might be jumping to a negative conclusion about what I was trying to get across about how there needs to be responsibility taken for "occupying" any public space and respect for what we all do in these spaces. I really appreciated the NYC groups recognizing that when we band together and exercise our right to protest, we do need to consider how our actions could impact public health & safety. Plus, how do we make the protest space safe and healthy for all of us protesting? There are ways to do this and continue to put OWS front and center so that our grievances are addressed.

I don't like police using tear gas, bean bag "bullets" on citizens that are airing their grievances peacefully. And what I was saying had to do with how these conflicts can be better addressed.

I have worked with homeless programs in the past and it is a huge social problem with many of these people not getting medical (and mental health care) care along with decent nutrition and the ability to stay warm in winter or cool in heat waves. I spent quite a few years in public service as a social worker. Personally, I feel we all are responsible for challenging the reasons for homelessness and have no problem with tax dollars being spent on homeless programs. In fact, I would like to see more spent on dealing with the challenges of homelessness.

There needs to be a balance between not infringing on the rights of others (the very 99% that uses these public areas- rich people go to private gyms, for examples and bring their kids to private day care, not the city parks) and having a consistent protest movement. Public parks, especially in large cities, offer people many forms of relaxation and exercise areas that are inexpensive and are at the heart of where we can congregate and do need to be kept clean and sanitary for public health reasons.

At the center of this is how to groom good relations that help bring people into this movement and begin to take action against the entities that the protests are pointing out. Getting to the goals of prosecution of Wall Street predatory lenders and actually seeing our government utilize the new regulatory legislation that was passed by Congress. Getting results.

As much as I hate to say this, I did see public urination in SF during a protest I went to there. Now my guess is that the guy that did it does all of the time, yet, this is what will be first on the news stations owned by Faux News to incite negative feelings about the entire OWS movement. Wouldn't it be better to have organized measures to have porta-potties in place? He also needs help.

I also believe that it might be more effective to have well planned, major events country-wide on specified dates. That way, the numbers of people protesting would be much larger and numbers in these things do matter in terms of impact. This could be a very influential movement in the coming general elections across the US if large protests are in place during the Summer and fall before the election. In fact, getting the OWS agendas to be part of the presidential debates during the general election campaign season is imperative for action. Including actions that might stop the number of people that will be tossed out of their homes.

This movement needs to grow and befriend a multitude of people in order to bring about the changes needed to protect the 99% just as the anti-Vietnam War protests did. With good organization and communication, that protest movement influenced congressional leaders to look at what we were doing in Vietnam and get us the hell out of there. This took quite a bit of time, but finally broke through a diversity of people in the US from liberals to conservatives. Which is needed here. Standing as one no matter if you vote Democrat, Republican or Independent is essential to get the changes we need and be heard.

I don’t like what is going on in Oakland because I am afraid that people will get hurt and that doesn’t have to happen. There are members of the Oakland City Council that support these protests but they also have duties to the entire city and are responsible for public health and welfare. Let's make it easier for them to back the protests. Although, the Oakland PD has a long history with unjust treatment of citizens and the chief just resigned due to the lack of support of city officials that were promised. There is some tension there that is not related to OWS.

Of course homelessness should not be viewed as illegal.

[Ebon]

[Ebon]

Austin still going strong even after this incident. I love the way the news handled it.

[ruffryder]

.. almost Halloween, it could get scary!

Friday the 28th is National Walk Out of School Day for OWS. 12:30 p.m. nationwide. Time for students and teachers to show their outrage with a walkout and a protest. This is slated for schools across the nation. Who will attend?

Remove inflation. The cause for holding students hostage with the debt of education. Be protected by the Bill of Rights. Assemble peacefully and occupy public space. Take a stand together against the 1%, have a right to free speech, protest, and make your voice heard in your country and in your streets. Occupy it.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by June

I am part of the 99%. I hope this all brings about some change and unifies those of us who pay more taxes for less representation. I hope it helps people like my mother understand that we are owned by corporations and the Republicans are not our saviors.

With that said. Our "Occupy Portland Camp" smells like reefer and Patcchuli and seems to be made up of young white folks with enough middle class privilege that they can afford to camp out in the middle of the city.

That kind of sucks. I know the one in NYC wasn't allowing drugs or alcohol, not that I ever think of reefer(I haven't heard this term used since 1982) as a drug. Patchouli I expected. lol At most of the other camps I've seen people from all walks of life. Older people, young people, students, union workers etc...

[ruffryder]

I thought this article was interesting on the connection between food stamps and JPMorgan or banks.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...p-morgan-makes

[Toughy]

yahoo photos.....about 2/3 through the 27 pics you will see what it looked like before the police 'evicted' them. Looks very neat and orderly to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/police-...072926256.html

I'm not buying the health and safety crap. KPFA....it's free radio...gave voice to the Occupy folks. They all seemed knowlegeable about food safey and health stuff. There are plenty of ways to safely deal with human waste. Camping toliets are fabulous things. These folks are not dirty nasty sub humans who want to wallow in human and rat piss and shit. Rats are everywhere in downtown Oakland as they are in every frigging city in the country.

If the Health Department had concerns they could have simply asked to talk to the folks in charge of the kitchen and work with them to make corrections IF needed.

Occupy Oakland and Occupy SF are well organized with every kind of committee you can think of..I know SF even has a gender issues point person.....they have regular open meetings. They are serious folks about the issues.

Oh yes there are probably some asshats.....always have been and always will be.......however they are no where no way the majority of the 99% folks.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Ebon

That kind of sucks. I know the one in NYC wasn't allowing drugs or alcohol, not that I ever think of reefer(I haven't heard this term used since 1982) as a drug. Patchouli I expected. lol At most of the other camps I've seen people from all walks of life. Older people, young people, students, union workers etc...

come on............it's Portland..........laughin......about the most white bread city in the country.......

As to reefer....I smell it every day on the streets anyway....medical marijuana is alive and well and on the streets in the Bay...

I didn't read the rules at the camps, but I would imagine no booze, no illegal drugs, no cigarettes/cigars would be the norm and probably no weapons except for knives. Smoking a bowl of bud is another thing.

[Dean Thoreau]

Unfortunately, Occupy Wall St has been occupying privately owned property not a public park, not a city park,....The owner of the land has told them they will be evicted..and they need to move. They have done neither so they have been evicted.
Please do not take this for my lack of support for occupy wall street...I am extremely supportive of all occupy movements across the country i spend much time here at the occupy philly one....

But, having a legal leg to stand on is usually a smart idea. and there is such a thing as trespassing....I dont like it,,,I am glad the city of philadlephia has been absolutely wonderful...they have even supplied some electric lines form city hall...However, the people who own our old liberty park are not as open minded nor do they want the occupiers on their property. Sad ,, but nothing to get ones bloomers in a bunch about,,There are plenty of places in the wall street area to occupy, march and stroll...If they would put their signs down they could occupy the nyse visitors section for a day....or so...Peaceful gatherings as in occupiers walking 2 by 2 down wall street sidewalks very very slowly, in silence, no signs...(see with no signs and in silence then it is just people walking) walk slow enough and you can cause major bedlam on that street.... and bluntly a few stalled out vehicles....in opportune places can make quite a statement....
The biggest point is however, the occupiers have started something good, but for it to continue each individual in the 98% needs to take responsibility for their own actions and say enough is enough and cut up the credit cards, close the bank account, open a credit union account, and start cutting their shackles to corporate America by buying locally, not buying on credit, and by simply saying I dont need it...I dont want it....none of us need the new fancy cellphone or the latest computer, or 4 00 channels on tv or the latest shoes, purse or jeans....we want so we say need....and until every person stops supporting the 2% with their need for immediate material gratification,,all the occupations in the world will do nothing..

Read this..... and I promise you will see what I am saying..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brendanc...wn-everything/

[ruffryder]

what to do if you're arrested for participating in OWS.

Although there may not be any justification for an arrest and you don't like the way you are treated, you should always remain calm. Physically resisting arrest will be worse for you. You have the right to remain silent and you have the right to refuse consent for a search.

Most of the arrests for OWS are falling under disorderly conduct. It can be different for each state, but they are along those lines, impeding traffic, failure to disperse, creating annoyance, loitering, etc. It could result in a misdemeanor charge, jail time and a criminal record. Once out of jail, if you continue to OWS and another arrest happens, it could bring harsher penalties each time.

Understand your rights however. Here is a link that goes over your rights if you're stopped by police, including asking if you are free to leave and writing a complaint and contacting your local ACLU if you feel your rights are violated.

http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-...what-do-if-you

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by persiphone

i've come to the conclusion that i'm against the idea of having to get a (or 47) permit(s) to protest. free speech and freedom to assemble has become a victim to overpermitization. (is that a word?) especially in areas that the public pays for. it's a little ridiculous and it's the grounds Naomi was arrested on.

about the name. i understand the issue with the name. however, i couldn't care less if they called it Shit On A Stick, as long as it invokes positive changes.

I see your point about permits and I also want safety for all as well as sanitary conditions to exist at protests. Sometimes someone gets sick and needs an ambulance. There has to be a way for the ambulance to get to them and get them on their way to a hospital, for example.

And I don't see a problem with having demonstrators disperse for public works employees to do their clean up jobs. Parks are continually maintained and cleaned by these kinds of departments and power washing is used all of the time. Then, everyone can come back.

I don't agree with the camping out as it leads to many more sanitation problems. For everyone- and disease is spread this way. There are many people including homeless folks that do not have good healthcare (one of our complaints), have compromised immune systems or other chronic illness in which contracting stash or hepatitis is more likely, thus, potentially threatening the health of others. This just happens in large crowd situations no matter who the people gathering are.

In a socially democratic society, we care about the health and well being of others. So, in exercising our rights to protest for the "good of the common people," shouldn't we consider how to best control the spread of germs, etc.?

LOL, yes, I am a germ-phobe, although it comes naturally as a person with an audio-immune cluster that I know compromises me in these kinds of situations. I wash my hands a lot! Don't even think about eating off of my plate or sharing a beverage. And if someone is coughing or sneezing, I'm gone. It isn't just a common cold that I could get. And I am just one of millions of people in the US dealing with this. I will be a real mess if I have to evacuate to a dorm situation or tent city during an earthquake! Consider the fact that homeless people may very well have poor health and not be able to fight off a common cold or become very ill with a flu strain. They don't even get decent general medical care as it is and most that have mental illnesses are not on needed medications in any consistent manner. They are at high risk.

It looks like in Oakland, the demonstrators are free to come back to the park after it is cleaned. However, they will not be allowed to camp-out or demonstrate after dark. I agree with Aj on the whole occupied land thing and the fact that unless one is Native American, they don't really have a right to take over any public space.

Does anyone know if these are now common procedures that are being put in place in other cities in the US where there are OWS protests. Also, have there been more efforts get a balance between the demonstrators and the jobs public works employees need to do with maintaining a public park. Frankly, I don't see the need for violence on either side of this if cool heads prevail. There have to be common sense solutions to keeping this peaceful and safe so that the real points of this assembly is realized.

I was arrested more than once back in the 70's while protesting- and I usually caught a cold after protesting. It's kind of like going into a classroom with a bunch of little kids with runny noses. Back then I didn't have the same health concerns, however. I am still going to some of these, but I won't be setting up camp.

[dreadgeek]

Ruffryder:

You bring up some interesting points that I wish were given more due consideration. One of the books I read in the last six months (I think it was Matt Ridley's The Rational Optimist) had a discussion about local sourcing and while it seems like a great idea, it actually can create quite a bit of price inflation. Someone back east set out to create a men's suit using only materials that could be obtained within 50 miles of her home. To be fair she started absolutely from scratch and, if memory serves (I don't have the book with me at work) a suit that would have cost maybe $150 - $200 at a local clothing store was close to $1000 when all was said and done. Another book I'm currently reading (Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature) brings up a really interesting point about trade and that is that it appears to create a more peaceful world. Why bomb someone at great expense when you can trade with them and get the things they have that you want at a fraction of the cost?

People who have studied how humans have become less violent over time (and despite what you might think humans are *far* less violent now then even a century ago) have noted two things. Trading partners tend not to go to war with one another and democracies tend not to go to war with one another. So while the idea of local sourcing and buying local might seem like an intuitively obvious idea, it may turn out that there are hidden costs. This is NOT a defense of globalization nor is it a defense of unregulated capitalism.

Another problem I see with our quickness to grasp onto local sourcing and buying local as a panacea is that it ignores what happens when trade is diminished. Let's say you live someplace where there's plenty of minerals but not a lot of good farmland. I live someplace where there's not a lot of minerals but lots of farmland. Now, if you trade your surplus minerals with me and I trade my surplus food with you, you have the food you can't grow yourself and I have the minerals I can't dig out of the ground. But what happens if I stop trading with you? Well, I still have all this food but I don't need to grow as much anymore. If I'm no longer selling for a large market, I don't need all the extra hands around. So I lay them off. Likewise, since you don't need nearly as many miners if you aren't trying to get enough minerals out of the ground to trade for other goods you lay them off. Now, we've done the right thing and we've shrunk our footprint. We are now only doing business locally but we're doing *less* business. Every person I lay off is one person who doesn't have money to stop by the bar and buy a couple of beers after a hard day. Every person you lay off is someone who isn't going to eat at the diner during their lunch hour. So the diner lays off someone. That person isn't going to go to the tailor and buy a new dress. So the tailor lays off someone. That person isn't going to be buying a car from the used car dealership, so they lay off someone.

We can't say that the economy doesn't behave that way because, in fact, we are in a recession *precisely* because the economy *does* behave that way. There's a crisis on Wall Street and businesses either fold or contract. The people who lose their jobs aren't spending at the lunch counters, bars and little shops surrounding the business districts so some of those businesses also fold. People who keep their jobs seriously contract their spending in case they are the next one's to get a layoff notice. More jobs are lost. And the cycle feeds on itself.

This is why I am so very, very frustrated that the GOP is pretending that a Keynesian stimulus would be nothing but a waste of money and energy. If people are hired to start repairing schools, bridges and roads those will be construction workers who have money in their pocket. Knowing that it's going to take a while to do the job and there'll be more work because there's a lot of roads to be repaired and schools to be updated, so they spend at the bar or the tailor or what-have-you. That is part of what is wrong is that the government, the spender of last resort, isn't able to do infrastructure projects NOT because there's no money but because our politics is broken.

I understand the arguments in favor of buying local and to some degree I think that's good. My wife and I, for instance, have committed to not eating out of season so there won't be bananas in January for us. On a limited scale this works and as an act of conscience I applaud it. However, I think that we need to be mindful of the ripple effects of economic actions. What might seem to be a self-evidently great idea may, in light of deeper reflection, have hidden costs that may be higher than we should want to pay.

How many here would be willing to have the cost of most everything--certainly their electronics, clothing and food--to double? Triple? Would this really help the poor if suddenly a $700 bare-bones laptop suddenly became a $2100 laptop because every component had to be made within 100 miles? What about those objects that have no physicality? Do we local source that stuff as well? When I upgraded to OS X Lion I didn't touch a DVD, I downloaded it. I don't know nor do I care *where* those bits came from. Should we local source those items like software, books and music that have no physicality to them?

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by ruffryder

Easier said than done, shop local. Do not shop Wal-Mart or go to McDonald's. You can only shop local if there is local farmers. There are not a lot! I went to a local grocery store, but guess what, it gets it's food from the same place Wal-Mart does and it was more expensive. Farmers sell their product to Wal-Mart and other major grocery stores because there is money in it for them. Why sit outside at a farmer's market all day and hope for someone to buy their stuff when a grocery chain will buy in bulk and take all the crop. I worked wholesale meat and produce for 8 years. We bought bulk from farmers and sold to grocery stores, restaurants, and schools. So farmers stuff does actually make it into stores and around town and stays in the U.S. McDonalds buys their beef from local farmers. . . I also worked 6 years in beef production. We got our cattle from local feed lots, slaughtered them, cleaned them up and distributed the meat to McDonalds and other major restaurants and grocery chains. We even shipped to Japan and handled organic meat for the customers that wanted it. I worked Quality Assurance so I know what is in the meat and how safe it is when it comes out of a meat plant. I have taken many tours from where the cattle comes from to how it is slaughtered, packaged, and shipped. You may not want to shop Wal-Mart or McDonalds, however you should research where they actually get their product from because some of it is from local farmers and from the U.S. We may not like McDonalds and Wal-Mart but they do provide many jobs for people in the U.S. Just a thought..

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

Unfortunately, Occupy Wall St has been occupying privately owned property not a public park, not a city park,....The owner of the land has told them they will be evicted..and they need to move. They have done neither so they have been evicted.
Please do not take this for my lack of support for occupy wall street...I am extremely supportive of all occupy movements across the country i spend much time here at the occupy philly one....

But, having a legal leg to stand on is usually a smart idea. and there is such a thing as trespassing....I dont like it,,,I am glad the city of philadlephia has been absolutely wonderful...they have even supplied some electric lines form city hall...However, the people who own our old liberty park are not as open minded nor do they want the occupiers on their property. Sad ,, but nothing to get ones bloomers in a bunch about,,There are plenty of places in the wall street area to occupy, march and stroll...If they would put their signs down they could occupy the nyse visitors section for a day....or so...Peaceful gatherings as in occupiers walking 2 by 2 down wall street sidewalks very very slowly, in silence, no signs...(see with no signs and in silence then it is just people walking) walk slow enough and you can cause major bedlam on that street.... and bluntly a few stalled out vehicles....in opportune places can make quite a statement....
The biggest point is however, the occupiers have started something good, but for it to continue each individual in the 98% needs to take responsibility for their own actions and say enough is enough and cut up the credit cards, close the bank account, open a credit union account, and start cutting their shackles to corporate America by buying locally, not buying on credit, and by simply saying I dont need it...I dont want it....none of us need the new fancy cellphone or the latest computer, or 4 00 channels on tv or the latest shoes, purse or jeans....we want so we say need....and until every person stops supporting the 2% with their need for immediate material gratification,,all the occupations in the world will do nothing..

Read this..... and I promise you will see what I am saying..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brendanc...wn-everything/

Dean:

I get what you're saying and I'm wrestling with this myself because my wife and I are not buying on credit and we've basically decided that if we can't save up for it, we don't need it. On the other hand, certain industries--and here I'm thinking about the computer industry--is predicated on a certain amount of 'churn'. Let's say that people took your advice and stopped buying the latest computer. That means that Dell, Apple and HP won't need as many employees so they'll lay them off. That means that the software vendors won't need as many employees so they'll lay *them* off. If everyone closes up their pockets and buys only the necessities then I think the economy will get worse, not better. It may not be the way we want it to be but I fear that whether we would prefer it, this is the economy we have to start with and make changes to that system.

I would like to see more emphasis on thrift and delayed gratification on the consumer side and a return to slow-and-steady growth on the business side. I would like to see businesspeople once again use, as one metric of success, hiring people instead of it being seen as, at best, an inconvenience to have a larger payroll this year than last.

Cheers
Aj

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

Unfortunately, Occupy Wall St has been occupying privately owned property not a public park, not a city park,....The owner of the land has told them they will be evicted..and they need to move. They have done neither so they have been evicted.
Please do not take this for my lack of support for occupy wall street...I am extremely supportive of all occupy movements across the country i spend much time here at the occupy philly one....

Dean, where are you getting the information that OWS has been evicted? I have heard nothing that says that has happened.
Are you referring to Occupy Oakland?

[Toughy]

Occupy Oakland @6:00pm 14th and Broadway tonight

ps Merrick I think Dean has old news....I heard about this last week and the guy decided not to evict them.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Occupy Oakland @6:00pm 14th and Broadway tonight

ps Merrick I think Dean has old news....I heard about this last week and the guy decided not to evict them.

Oh that.. The clean up thing.. Yeah that's very old news
Did everyone hear about the Chief of Police in Albany who defied the Governor ? Or lets put it this way, suggested he needed to rethink evicting peaceful protesters ; )
Let me see if I can link it..
I have only heard generally about it, don't have specific knowledge ...
It will be covered tomorrow morning on WRRL with a commentator who has broadcast from OWS several times now, Mark Lewis...Worth listening to and yes you can catch the show streaming live...
But here you go:

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/ar...4390.phpttp://

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Oh that.. The clean up thing.. Yeah that's very old news
Did everyone hear about the Chief of Police in Albany who defied the Governor ? Or lets put it this way, suggested he needed to rethink evicting peaceful protesters ; )
Let me see if I can link it..
I have only heard generally about it, don't have specific knowledge ...
It will be covered tomorrow morning on WRRL with a commentator who has broadcast from OWS several times now, Mark Lewis...Worth listening to and yes you can catch the show streaming live...
But here you go:

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/ar...4390.phpttp://

I found an article. So awesome!

http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/10/2...occupy-albany/

Police defy order from Mayor, NY Gov, to shut down and arrest Occupy Albany

This is a breath of fresh air. Democratic New York State Governor Andrew Cuomo, who should know better, wanted Occupy Wall Street protesters out of the park at the NY State Capitol. If they refused to leave, he wanted arrests.

He pressured Albany Mayor Jerry Jennings, who had earlier said he had no problem with the occupiers camping out, and Jennings changed his tune. Orders also went out to New York State Police. Cuomo and Jennings both said, “Get them out of here.”

But the police said no, and stood by the occupiers.

And as the Albany Times Union reported (full disclosure: I used to work for the Times Union):

“We were ready to make arrests if needed, but these people complied with our orders,” a State Police official said. However, he added that State Police supported the defiant posture of Albany police leaders to hold off making arrests for the low-level offense of trespassing, in part because of concern it could incite a riot or draw thousands of protesters in a backlash that could endanger police and the public.

“We don’t have those resources, and these people were not causing trouble,” the official said. “The bottom line is the police know policing, not the governor and not the mayor.” (via)

The occupation now looks to be settling in and could go on indefinitely.

That is just a bit of the article.