01-01-2011, 10:07 PM | #61 |
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Hi Nightshade, welcome!
Which editor are you using? If you use the WYSIWYG editor--you can set that preference by going to the top left-hand corner of this page and clicking "User CP"; then click "edit Options" and scroll to the bottom of the page, set the editor you want and click "save changes"--then all you have to do is quote someone and it shows up pre-formatted. You just delete what you don't want from their post and you're good to go. I like the term Stonefemme, myself. I use it to both talk about my gender and to differentiate myself from Femmes who are sexually stone, since it's so doggoned confusing that we only have the one term (Stone Femme) for two such different meanings. |
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01-02-2011, 03:15 PM | #62 | |
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Cocky hmmmm…perhaps I was just trying to be helpful I like the “energy circuit” analogy- thank you for articulating it. The discussion around Stone is always interesting; with some wishing to make it a debate about politics and ideologies, and others making it about psychological hurdles concerned with body image and trust. But for me when the conversation involves Stone being a deliberate intellectual choice, or that it is a symptom of something that requires curing i.e. “melting the Stone”, I am at a loss. It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you, it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident. Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.
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01-02-2011, 04:13 PM | #63 | |
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what's in a word
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I've read this thread a little here and there, and have largely held off posting because: 1) I don't at this point in my life identify as stone butch, though there was a time in which I did. 2) I have always been frustrated by how some attempt choose to define the identity of others. I mostly overcome this feeling by remembering that the ignorance, assumptions and sense of entitlement of others is no reflection on me. However, I was sort of surprised that by page 4 there has been no discussion of the etymology of the word, even after sassy made the post above. While many words are "user defined," especially those revolving around identity (like "stone"), each does have a root from which it originated. Stone comes from the term "stone cold," to refer to things that were "very cold." The root of that expression is believed to reference when floors were often made of slate and would become extremely cold in winter. Other examples of this application include, "stone cold sober" simply meaning very sober; sober as most possibly sober. One commonly held belief is that "stone butch" came about to refer to butches that were "stone cold butch;" the most butch among butches - those who were most masculine (and I pointedly state "masculine" not male). This is the definition to which I have always held. It refers to a butch who is unwavering in their identity, and in their presentation of self; one who would never sacrifice their personal sense of comfort, well being and identity in order to bend to the wishes of others, whether seeking a job, dealing with family, or a sexual partner. This definition, for me, includes no particular reference to sex/sexuality, but allows for each stone butch to define for themselves what their comfort level is and how they are going to hold that line - in all aspects of their life. Technically, that means a stone butch could be quite "free" sexually, including open to anal penetration or oral sex, for example. I have seen a lot of nonsense over the years in which people have tried to say that if one is stone they would never engage in x, y, z sexual practices, but I disagree that the label includes such rigid definitions, or in fact, that it would necessarily include much in the way of preconceived or pre-defined notions of sex. Further, being stone doesn't in any way necessarily relate to being a top, or a "daddy." These are other, unrelated identities that can certainly be attached, but are not inclusive in the definition of stone butch.
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01-02-2011, 05:53 PM | #64 | |||
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That wasn't a message I could hear from other Butches, even when they spoke it. I heard it from Stone Butches because of the energy connection between us; that period of my life, that time of great healing, holds my most treasured friendships and memories. |
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01-02-2011, 06:04 PM | #65 |
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Ahhhhhh, Bit. One of the "mothers" of internet stone butch theory (so to speak), in my opinion. Welcome! <tips hat>
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01-02-2011, 06:07 PM | #66 |
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I wonder where all the stone butches are in NJ/NY they keep to themselves I think..
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01-02-2011, 06:16 PM | #67 | |
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I think it is a huge fallacy to assume that either stone butches or transmen universally possess this self-awareness and self-confidence; that all veils of insecurity and self-doubt have been magically lifted. While this thread is to celebrate the stone butch (and here I will also go on record that the term "stoner" is sort of offensive to me), let's not bestow upon them some elevated status or mantles of higher evolution. Which is not at all to diminish your personal experience of the clicking of all things that matter. You are fortunate to have that, and no one can take it.
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01-02-2011, 07:48 PM | #68 | ||||||
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Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident? Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience. Quote:
My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing. Quote:
Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it? Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are? How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone? Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people? I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me. |
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01-02-2011, 08:58 PM | #69 | |
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Your statements alluded to your experiences, but can easily be read to apply to stone butches and transmen in general. The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification. I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post. Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did. My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive). If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed. I do very much appreciate the opportunity to engage in this dialogue, thank you.
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken Last edited by Mister Bent; 01-02-2011 at 09:01 PM. |
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01-02-2011, 10:46 PM | #70 | |||||||||
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My opening sentence was the word "YES," so I think you might mean the first sentence you quoted. Converse said, "But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone. " and I replied directly to that statement, "One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge...." I will reiterate that I acknowledged the confidence and self-awareness are usually hard-won, which right there says that it is a struggle for many Stone Butches and Transmen to get to that place--which in any logical reading serves as notice that all Stone Butches and Transmen are NOT in the same place at the same time. If you choose to read some sort of blanket statement into my post despite my acknowledgement of this, then you are choosing to ignore the reality of what I actually said. Quote:
No, it hasn't. I said the same thing twice. You simply didn't see it until the second time, I suspect because the second time I was speaking directly to you instead of to Converse. Quote:
My original statements were not general, they were a direct answer to someone else's post. Had I posted this way initially, I would have been speaking to you instead of to Converse, but it was Converse who was speaking to me, and it was my choice to answer. It seems you missed that context. Quote:
Since when is the universe such a binary place that a simple acknowledgement of one kind of person automatically tarnishes all other people? Let us be EXTREMELY clear, here: that is YOUR attitude and not mine. You are the one who is stating that if people state they value something, they are automatically devaluing everything else; you are the one who is not allowing for people's ability to value many things at the same time. In MY universe, there are exemplary people everywhere. There is no either/or; I will not nor have I EVER stated, insinuated, or implied that if one kind of person is good all other kinds of people are bad or somehow "less than." Anyone who can read such a heinously limited and limiting thought in a simple acknowledgement that the Stone Butches and Transmen who attract me have self-awareness and confidence is reading what they wish or expect to see instead of reading what I actually said. Again I repeat, it is YOUR assumption that if people say they value one kind of person, that statement automatically devalues all other kinds of persons. Your very binary either/or assumption has nothing to do with the reality of my post. Quote:
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You might wish to consider that had you simply posted, "Self-awareness takes a lot of hard work" or "I haven't found that all Stone Butches are self-aware and confident," or some such similarly non-judgmental statement that I would have most willingly engaged in an entirely more pleasant dialogue with you. |
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01-03-2011, 08:13 AM | #71 |
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In reading this thread, I can only put in my personal perspective on the topic. For myself, I DO id as Stone Butch. For myself, it is less about how much self-awareness I have as to how I walk through life. It is a bit difficult to explain for me for some reason. The best example for me is the type of woman I am attracted to. Very femme. Very Southern, ie demure, respectful, old school ect. Not that I like door mats. If you know anything about Southern women that is the last thing you could possibly describe them as. Quietly fierce is more like it. What is odd for my situation is I felt I was overlooked as a masculine woman because I am quite thin, small boned and was described when I was young as pretty. I didn't feel I was taken seriously in the B/F world because of these things. I spent most of my youth being hyper aggressive, drunk and angry. I liken it to attempting to "feel my size". I didn't feel like a "real" Butch, because I did not think I looked like one. So, I fought against my own notions and sterotypes of what a Butch should look like, act like and just be. This is the main reason I took so far, nine years of abtainance from the dating pool. I was just flailing about and unfit for human consumption. Something I have learned is I have to define me. For me. I know there are some that will rail about being put in a box. For me it is knowing who I am. For me. I had to become selfish to be selfless I suppose. It has taken me a long time to get some comfort inside myself. I will never be one of those big Butch women that I always thought I should be. Hell, I am 5' 8" tall and weigh 130 pounds. I am a stick. *shrug* So what? I still look like me. A little older yeah. But, inside, I am a big masculine Butch. But, finally, I do not have to be a total tool to prove it. That in and of its self is such a relief. I was really tired of getting my ass kicked. The main point is I found myself. How I feel. How I define me. I simply am a Stone Butch because that is who I am.
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01-03-2011, 08:32 AM | #72 |
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Bit, I prefer to remain succinct, so I'll say that I'm not the only one who read your post as I did, I stand by what I said, and you can continue this argument as long as you wish, but I will reiterate that you are, in fact, being taken to task for statements that you did make. Back peddling and attempting to make me appear incapable of comprehending your very straight-forward, simple sentences lacks credibility and is rather insulting. If I were to wish to "school" you, I would point out that "yes" is not actually a sentence, as it fails to meet the requirements of proper sentence structure. I stand by my phrasing.
It's not my concern if you view my being honest about the humanity of stone butches and transmen (of which I am one, you are NOT) as "derailing and discourages other people from posting" (yet oddly, other people are posting). I view your statements as borderline irresponsible, and I get to say that. Your history on these sorts of topics is well noted and you might wish to consider the relative weight of judgment in your post. So, feel free to continue to paint me as the "meanie," maybe some white knight will ride up and rescue you. I do not wish to engage with you further on this issue, as it is only so much beating of a dead horse and is the thing that will discourage others from posting.
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01-03-2011, 09:28 AM | #73 | |
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I'm glad you've come to a better place and that you've found yourself as a Stone Butch. I can relate to the relief of that, because it was such a relief when I found myself as a Stonefemme. Like you, I see it not as being put in a box, but as self-definition. |
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01-03-2011, 10:01 AM | #74 |
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These postings distress me. While I care for Mr. Bent and Bit, they are unaware of the esteem which I, and likely others, hold them. Bent's penetrating comments and quick observations. Bits compassion and understanding and support of butches.
Perhaps my discomfort arises from my own stuff, my state of mind because of grief. I don't know, but I want you both to know that this disagreement disturbs me, and I wish that you would work it out between you. I do really care for you both. You are each important to me and, IMO, to this community, in your own way. Last edited by waxnrope; 01-03-2011 at 10:03 AM. Reason: giving up on autocorrect :( |
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01-03-2011, 10:05 AM | #75 |
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I see it not so much as an argument, but a lively discussion. Which is good. As long as the gloves stay on and all parties are respectful, go for it. Keep it flame free and others may just learn something they did not know. My .02.
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01-03-2011, 10:10 AM | #76 |
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I've not said a thing about an argument, Legend.
The tone. Bent's decision to NOT engage further... a mixed bag of things, not all relative to the word word argue, which is WHY I chose to not use the word. |
01-03-2011, 10:15 AM | #77 |
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My word choice. I am sorry to have put it that way. Lively discussion perhaps? lol All I know is I have my opinion, you have yours, they have thiers. And it is a good thing. As long as the flame is kept away. It is all a good thing.
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01-03-2011, 10:21 AM | #78 | |
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I appreciate your spirit of inclusiveness and your willingness to be honest about your feelings here.
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01-03-2011, 10:27 AM | #79 |
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I too agree with what was said. I have learned a lot from just sitting back and reading things posted. I suck at wording things sometimes, too plain spoken I suppose. I do so appreciate the opportunity to see other's points of view. It gives me the opportunity to step back and think about a different perception. That is so good for me. There are many people here that are much smarter about things than I am and having the opportunity to learn from them is such a blessing.
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01-03-2011, 10:51 AM | #80 | |
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i do always try to remember not to judge a book by its cover. it whats inside that makes it a best seller!
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