Stone Butches

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Bit

There is any other possible way to interpret "what draws ME," than that it would be "in my experience"? I think that possibly you do the rest of the readers of this thread a disservice to assume they are unable to understand that I am talking about myself and my own experience, most especially since I have taken pains to make it plain that I am NOT talking about anyone else.



Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident?

Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience.



My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing.



Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it?

Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are?

How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone?

Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people?



I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me.

You are free to take my post however suits you, though I had not one whit of patronizing intent.

Your statements alluded to your experiences, but can easily be read to apply to stone butches and transmen in general. The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification.

I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post. Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did. My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive). If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed.

I do very much appreciate the opportunity to engage in this dialogue, thank you.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

You are free to take my post however suits you, though I had not one whit of patronizing intent.

That's good to know.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Your statements alluded to your experiences, but can easily be read to apply to stone butches and transmen in general.

Only by someone who wishes to believe that I make blanket statements, since my entire post--which you chose to quote without context--was a response to this post, which I quote again for your convenience.

Originally Posted by Converse

Cocky hmmmm…perhaps I was just trying to be helpful

I like the “energy circuit” analogy- thank you for articulating it. The discussion around Stone is always interesting; with some wishing to make it a debate about politics and ideologies, and others making it about psychological hurdles concerned with body image and trust. But for me when the conversation involves Stone being a deliberate intellectual choice, or that it is a symptom of something that requires curing i.e. “melting the Stone”, I am at a loss.

It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you, it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident.

Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification.

My opening sentence was the word "YES," so I think you might mean the first sentence you quoted.

Converse said, "But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone. " and I replied directly to that statement, "One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge...."

I will reiterate that I acknowledged the confidence and self-awareness are usually hard-won, which right there says that it is a struggle for many Stone Butches and Transmen to get to that place--which in any logical reading serves as notice that all Stone Butches and Transmen are NOT in the same place at the same time.

If you choose to read some sort of blanket statement into my post despite my acknowledgement of this, then you are choosing to ignore the reality of what I actually said.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post.

No, it hasn't. I said the same thing twice. You simply didn't see it until the second time, I suspect because the second time I was speaking directly to you instead of to Converse.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did.

My original statements were not general, they were a direct answer to someone else's post. Had I posted this way initially, I would have been speaking to you instead of to Converse, but it was Converse who was speaking to me, and it was my choice to answer.

It seems you missed that context.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive).

Since when is the universe such a binary place that a simple acknowledgement of one kind of person automatically tarnishes all other people?

Let us be EXTREMELY clear, here: that is YOUR attitude and not mine. You are the one who is stating that if people state they value something, they are automatically devaluing everything else; you are the one who is not allowing for people's ability to value many things at the same time.

In MY universe, there are exemplary people everywhere. There is no either/or; I will not nor have I EVER stated, insinuated, or implied that if one kind of person is good all other kinds of people are bad or somehow "less than." Anyone who can read such a heinously limited and limiting thought in a simple acknowledgement that the Stone Butches and Transmen who attract me have self-awareness and confidence is reading what they wish or expect to see instead of reading what I actually said.

Again I repeat, it is YOUR assumption that if people say they value one kind of person, that statement automatically devalues all other kinds of persons. Your very binary either/or assumption has nothing to do with the reality of my post.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I do very much appreciate the opportunity to engage in this dialogue, thank you.

It doesn't seem like a dialogue to me. It seems like I am being taken to task for things which I have not said--being forced to defend my words and even my attitudes, instead of being allowed to participate in the conversation. I dislike being "schooled," most especially when it derails the conversation and discourages other people from posting.

You might wish to consider that had you simply posted, "Self-awareness takes a lot of hard work" or "I haven't found that all Stone Butches are self-aware and confident," or some such similarly non-judgmental statement that I would have most willingly engaged in an entirely more pleasant dialogue with you.

[Legendryder]

In reading this thread, I can only put in my personal perspective on the topic. For myself, I DO id as Stone Butch. For myself, it is less about how much self-awareness I have as to how I walk through life. It is a bit difficult to explain for me for some reason. The best example for me is the type of woman I am attracted to. Very femme. Very Southern, ie demure, respectful, old school ect. Not that I like door mats. If you know anything about Southern women that is the last thing you could possibly describe them as. Quietly fierce is more like it. What is odd for my situation is I felt I was overlooked as a masculine woman because I am quite thin, small boned and was described when I was young as pretty. I didn't feel I was taken seriously in the B/F world because of these things. I spent most of my youth being hyper aggressive, drunk and angry. I liken it to attempting to "feel my size". I didn't feel like a "real" Butch, because I did not think I looked like one. So, I fought against my own notions and sterotypes of what a Butch should look like, act like and just be. This is the main reason I took so far, nine years of abtainance from the dating pool. I was just flailing about and unfit for human consumption. Something I have learned is I have to define me. For me. I know there are some that will rail about being put in a box. For me it is knowing who I am. For me. I had to become selfish to be selfless I suppose. It has taken me a long time to get some comfort inside myself. I will never be one of those big Butch women that I always thought I should be. Hell, I am 5' 8" tall and weigh 130 pounds. I am a stick. *shrug* So what? I still look like me. A little older yeah. But, inside, I am a big masculine Butch. But, finally, I do not have to be a total tool to prove it. That in and of its self is such a relief. I was really tired of getting my ass kicked. The main point is I found myself. How I feel. How I define me. I simply am a Stone Butch because that is who I am.

[Mister Bent]

Bit, I prefer to remain succinct, so I'll say that I'm not the only one who read your post as I did, I stand by what I said, and you can continue this argument as long as you wish, but I will reiterate that you are, in fact, being taken to task for statements that you did make. Back peddling and attempting to make me appear incapable of comprehending your very straight-forward, simple sentences lacks credibility and is rather insulting. If I were to wish to "school" you, I would point out that "yes" is not actually a sentence, as it fails to meet the requirements of proper sentence structure. I stand by my phrasing.


It's not my concern if you view my being honest about the humanity of stone butches and transmen (of which I am one, you are NOT) as "derailing and discourages other people from posting" (yet oddly, other people are posting). I view your statements as borderline irresponsible, and I get to say that. Your history on these sorts of topics is well noted and you might wish to consider the relative weight of judgment in your post. So, feel free to continue to paint me as the "meanie," maybe some white knight will ride up and rescue you. I do not wish to engage with you further on this issue, as it is only so much beating of a dead horse and is the thing that will discourage others from posting.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Legendryder

........What is odd for my situation is I felt I was overlooked as a masculine woman because I am quite thin, small boned and was described when I was young as pretty. I didn't feel I was taken seriously in the B/F world because of these things.

That had to be really difficult; I've known a lot of Butches who described going through the same kind of experience for various reasons, usually related to their looks. It's a heartbreaker for me because to me, what counts is inside; to me, looks are pretty much irrelevant.

I'm glad you've come to a better place and that you've found yourself as a Stone Butch. I can relate to the relief of that, because it was such a relief when I found myself as a Stonefemme. Like you, I see it not as being put in a box, but as self-definition.

[waxnrope]

These postings distress me. While I care for Mr. Bent and Bit, they are unaware of the esteem which I, and likely others, hold them. Bent's penetrating comments and quick observations. Bits compassion and understanding and support of butches.

Perhaps my discomfort arises from my own stuff, my state of mind because of grief. I don't know, but I want you both to know that this disagreement disturbs me, and I wish that you would work it out between you. I do really care for you both. You are each important to me and, IMO, to this community, in your own way.

[Legendryder]

I see it not so much as an argument, but a lively discussion. Which is good. As long as the gloves stay on and all parties are respectful, go for it. Keep it flame free and others may just learn something they did not know. My .02.

[waxnrope]

I've not said a thing about an argument, Legend.
The tone. Bent's decision to NOT engage further... a mixed bag of things, not all relative to the word word argue, which is WHY I chose to not use the word.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

These postings distress me. While I care for Mr. Bent and Bit, they are unaware of the esteem which I, and likely others, hold them. Bent's penetrating comments and quick observations. Bits compassion and understanding and support of butches.

Perhaps my discomfort arises from my own stuff, my state of mind because of grief. I don't know, but I want you both to know that this disagreement disturbs me, and I wish that you would work it out between you. I do really care for you both. You are each important to me and, IMO, to this community, in your own way.

Wax, I also appreciate very much what you said here. I will continue to post, should something inspire me to comment (as sassy's post did) and have filed the preceding under "Agree to Disagree" and am done commenting, as I see no viable resolution.

I appreciate your spirit of inclusiveness and your willingness to be honest about your feelings here.

[Legendryder]

I too agree with what was said. I have learned a lot from just sitting back and reading things posted. I suck at wording things sometimes, too plain spoken I suppose. I do so appreciate the opportunity to see other's points of view. It gives me the opportunity to step back and think about a different perception. That is so good for me. There are many people here that are much smarter about things than I am and having the opportunity to learn from them is such a blessing.