Pressurised to transition.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

Actually, I don't personally think, in this thread, that butches need to reflect upon the "validity" of their feelings or observations when it comes to discussing their own experiences of feeling pressure around transition.

Heart

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Is this the one not very long ago (I thin dapper put it together)? I remember that one and some of the discussions about how for some, the items to choose from were confusing. But not everyone felt that way. No, not scientific and reflects only us, here.

yet, it gives some info about what Liam brings up.

No.

My poll was not a poll on how we identified.

My poll was about how people of different genders felt about the term cissexed.

Linus, thanks for taking the time to pull that data together. I find it quite interesting.

(Also a nod to Liam and his posts).

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I think your words are insightful. I would like for you to consider this, "role playing" can also serve to bring us to a greater understanding of ourselves and others.

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.

Originally Posted by Greyson

This thread is specifically about gender but I hope most of us realized we are asked from the moment we are born to act, think and live to be whatever is considered to be the "normative." You are not part of the dominate culture? Then get busy and lose your language, lose weight, dye your hair, live beyond your financial means, don't go out into the sun. Straighten your hair.

Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)

Originally Posted by Greyson

This "role playing" can be a double edged sword. I have identified as a Butch for the majority of my life. Yes, also even after have undergoing top surgery, three years on T and legal gender change. I did not make the decision to "transition" because of pressure. I am moving into more of who I am, how I was born. My life as Trans is not any less complex than being Butch.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

No.

My poll was not a poll on how we identified.

My poll was about how people of different genders felt about the term cissexed.

Linus, thanks for taking the time to pull that data together. I find it quite interesting.

(Also a nod to Liam and his posts).

Got it!

^5

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think statistics are important when someone uses phrases such as, "a lot of butches going through surgery of some kind to be happier in their skin" or "from what I have seen it feels like butches are decreasing and transguys are increasing," because while that may be how someone perceives reality, that does not make it true. In the past, I have seen this type of language develop into alarm and devisivness, and I would hope that people understand the distinction between what a person feels they are observing and what truly is. I think there is room in this thread for butches to share their feelings as well as reflect upon the validity of their observations.

I understand why you would want to explore these statements and yes, let us not go to past places of alarm and divisiveness. That has never been a good thing.

The point Heart makes is valid in terms of the thread being for butches to discuss this within our own zone in relationship to feelings we may have experienced. No, feelings don't make something true in terms of any faulty thinking there might be about numbers of transgendered people here or butches. But someone’s feelings/emotional experiences are valid for each and every one of us- including trans members.

Liam, there are things that need to be talked about among butches in this realm so that "myth" or false assumptions are brought out. Even though I have never felt pressure to transition by trans guys (although I did cite instances in which I have been by femmes I dated), I have no idea if this is true for other butches. And if they have been- how can we deal with this?

To be honest, I would think that trans guys would be very cautious about influencing a butch to transition- it isn't some boom-bam journey without many obstacles and difficult situations to deal with- from family, possibly a partner, friends to all the medical procedures. And it takes years. You know this very well due to your own experience and journey. However, you are a mature, thoughtful, bright guy that didn't just up and decide to transition. There could be much younger, less mature trans guys that might still be in that time of life when peer pressure is just the mode of operation. Also, there are so many differing experiences that trans guys I have known throughout nearly 40 years now that I have never put any generality to their transitioning processes- so individual.

There have been quite a few Transmen as well as femmes giving their input in this thread that have been really positive for me to read and think about. I don't want the thread to disintegrate either, and as a person that will not put up with transphobic or stereotypes of transpeople, I will call out anyone that goes there. I guess it is hard to trust this in a thread by and for butches to discuss this topic, but I really need your trust (trans guys here) to do the right thing in terms of any unfair or misinformation that might get posted.

Also, I would always recommend that someone ask questions they might be struggling with in the Ask a Transperson thread because I believe they would be able to get good information from those that are trans. I have to trust that because it is important to have such forums and resources.

I don't personally believe in the statements you quote above, but it I think we are capable of talking about what is not so great about these statements. I wanted to know about the stats because I was thinking that maybe there is some study that has been done that would apply to the B-F community. The only one I could remember was Dapper’s- and I had it wrong in my memory about what was really measured.

Something that I have learned via the transpeople in my life as well as in this community (on and off-line) that have experienced life as a butch before transitioning is that we share many commonalities and have supported by them.

This is a butch space for butch expression and I hope it can proceed as such. Obviously with input by trans folks or femmes that want to contribute in a way that keeps the butch experience as the main focus as the thread was designed to do. We need understanding and supportive allies, too- and to have the same kinds of space that transpeople, women, stone people, BDSM folks, femmes, etc. do at times.

Everyone's feelings are valid- yet perhaps not based upon fact and I'm sure posters will point out where the facts are just not there.

[Merlin]

Especially when you don't reside in that country.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Chazz

It's been my experience that "role playing" was a circuitous path. Would that I could have had a more direct trajectory.

Role-playing may or may not be a way of working through dominant culture constructs. It may also be a way of embracing them. You say as much in your next quote.



Role playing is a form of acting-as-if. It happens no less within subcultures where dominant culture values are rejected. Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers come to mind.

Are we all sponges for dominant culture values, sure, at least until we shed them as best we can. That is if we're of a mind to, of course. (This includes cultural outlaws like Outlaw bikers, street gangs and Gothers, too. There deal may be oppositional; it may also be a way of conceding defeat.)



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "double-edged sword". I contextually take it to mean good and bad at the same time.

If I read you accurately, are you saying that identifying as "butch" was who you really were at the time, or was that a role-play?

The reason I ask is because it never occurred to me to think of butch or "Trans" in terms of complexity - i.e. one being more complex than the other. I see them as two separate and distinct identities, not different points along the same continuum. Although, I have heard people speak of butch and "Trans" in such a way, I think doing so is the source of much confusion and consternation.

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman. I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

[AtLast]

I hope eventually we can talk about what julieisafemme brought up about how at times, one can grieve the loss of a butch friend that decides to transition. I think she was talking about this in terms of losses that can be felt by butches with other butch friends transitioning. That is how I interpreted her post.

I know that this can be really sensitive- which can be based upon the very myths that some posters are bringing up. I.e., what Liam points to in the danger of accepting the mythologies of trans guys increasing in our B-F community and butch identity decreasing. Or, trans guys just want to take up with femmes in the B-F community.

There are so many other kinds of things that a butch friend might be grieving that are just human responses to the loss of a part of someone that they have experienced for years as a friend that have nothing to do with any of that and everything to do with adjustments/adaptations people go through. I have certainly grieved the loss of a friend's physical mobility before because I shared years of playing sports with that friend and now that has changed and we have to work out other activities to share. Now, my friends have to deal with my having disability issues and make adjustments. One has taken a powder- not really much of a friend, really.

For me, there has been some grief about a friend that transitions that I have shared specific butch lesbian constructs with in the past. And for a time, often, there could be that a friend just spends more time with other trans friends than me that has always been someone I did a lot of things with. Even with their partner and my own in the past. On one level, I get this as it is important to get involved in support groups and attend conferences, etc. in which I am not part of. People only have so much time to share with friends, family, partners, and work- so things just shift. But there can be hurt feelings.

I remember the loss my late partner's daughter felt due to her "Other Mother" transitioning into her "Dad." She grieved the loss of that other mother as a female co-parent and had a difficult time even trying to express herself because she felt like she might hurt her Dad's feelings. So, she ended up resenting his transition for a time (she was pre-teen at the time of his starting to transition) and blaming it on her parents splitting up.

I, myself after the suicide of a trans childhood friend in high school had several years in which transition of anyone I knew brought up a lot of fear. I was a lot younger then and it was an entirely different world in terms of gender identity and transition then. Later, I worked through this and also things like being scorned by straight friends when I came out to them. All part of life as someone that just does not fall within the societal norms.

Anyway- this could be a good topic area to discuss. A lot of complexity!!

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Converse

Merlin I understand exactly what you are saying, however, many years ago on my very first visit to a women’s bar in San Francisco, after I had been working in England for a few years, much to my enjoyment I found myself of some interest to the locals who told me “its not like London here, there aren’t very many Butches”.

It’s all about perspective.

Completely agree. I used to live in a certain city (X) and hang around a community of BF'ers. When I moved to my current city, I met a BF'er here who had also lived in (X) and told me that there were No BF'ers there. At all. Ever.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

I agreed with you on the "Trans or Butch as not more or less complex than one another".

Where I see us diverging is on the continuum issue.

Butches are not transmen. Nor, are we "cisgendered" (i.e. someone whose gender identity agrees with their societally recognized sex). Butches do not adhere to a gender binary even within the lesbian and gay culture. Butches are uncisgendered. To be linguistically consistent, one would have to say we're cisbutch.

Like the term women (i.e. not men), the term "cisgender" is commonly held to mean, not "Trans". I won't go into the inappropriateness of defining any group by what they are not - it should be obvious. Besides, POC have long since made the case for not being described as "non-white" as have Feminists for females not being defined as "non-males".

Originally Posted by Greyson

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman.

I get that. The inner contours of my life aren't all that different since I came into the fullness of my understanding of myself as a butch.

But, let's think about this continuum construct for a minute....

Butch isn't an a pre-"Trans" state for butches. Butch is the final destination. To speak of butch identity otherwise, is to (albeit inadvertently) create a horizontal hierarchy with "Trans" succeeding butch. People (you) may not intend to imply successionism or hierarchies, but placing butches and "Trans" on the same continuum does just that. It's how continua work.

Butch identity falls along a spectrum not a continuum. One butch isn't butcher than another.

I don't think butches and "Trans" follow the same trajectory. For instance, I don't think of myself as being in the wrong body. I think of myself as a butch in a butch body (cisbutch).

Originally Posted by Greyson

I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Having legal rights and privileges that lesbians and gays don't have is hugely different.

Originally Posted by Greyson

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

Of course, there is a difference between a Transman and a Cisgender man. Just as there are differences between being gay, straight, bisexual, trans, non-trans, butch, femme.... But let's be consistent in acknowledging those differences.

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

[BullDog]

I am puzzled about the "not butch enough" being associated with transitioning since most who transition don't identify as butch.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

Well said, Converse. For me, it's never been about the "next stage" or becoming "other". It's always been about being more accepting of my cisbutch self.

Originally Posted by Converse

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Butches are doubly pressured to be self-othering. First by dominant culture and its gender constructs, then by forces within the community with theirs.

Butches who succumb to this "othering the self/selfing the other", are doubly-colonized.

Damn, as if life wasn't hard enough.

[Merlin]

The not butch enough is between butches .. And what is said or more not said.

Transitioning isn't the natural progression for all butches.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Rings true for me too- although, transitioning has honestly never entered my mind. Thinking there is just something "wrong" with me as a female human began at a very young age.

The whole "next stage" belief system is what really bothers me. We have arrived and that battle within the context of a very homophobic and misogynist society has been rough.

No, we are not cis-gendered at all- if we were, then why are we so often called "freaks"?

These are the very reasons that it is really important for butches to be able to talk about our identity as butches outside of any trans viewpoints sometimes. I say sometimes because I recognize that other butches were are/were indeed continuum- but not all of us are. It is just erroneous to put all butches on that continuum. It hurts, is dismissive and simply erroneous- causing as much damage to butches as myth and outright bigotry hurts and dismisses transgendered people.

It gets really difficult to feel like I am walking on a tight rope if I try to talk about being butch as my true state of being as a finished human being. I know that historically, there has been (might still emerge, unfortunately) some awful transphobic attacks on our own trans members stemming back to the dash site. That hurts me too because this is my home also and there are countless Transmen here (and Tran masculine butches) that are my friends and just people I care about and respect and would never put their journey down. In fact, seeing them find their way and having some happiness feels good to me.

I (and many other butches) have spoken to the positive aspects of varying gender theories that are finally flowing within society and in our small population. There is freedom in gender theory that applies to butches as well as transgendered and intergendered folks. And femmes that love them- and butches. I just want to accept this gift and find some peace and happiness. Hurting each other is just not part of that peace.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

....The whole "next stage" belief system is what really bothers me. We have arrived [at] that battle within the context of a very homophobic and misogynist society has been rough.

Yes, that battle has been very rough, indeed. To fight for identity on two fronts at once, is unacceptable. I think this is one of the under articulated issues at the core of the "gender wars".

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

....These are the very reasons that it is really important for butches to be able to talk about our identity as butches outside of any trans viewpoints sometimes.

Exactly. It's essential lest we lose sight of who WE are within the LGBTQ panoply.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I say sometimes because I recognize that other butches [were/are] indeed [on a] continuum- but not all of us are.

This is why I prefer the term spectrum. It avoids all that unintentional, or intentional, ranking of butch-ness which is too often based in "cismale" or heternormative constructs. That's the dominant culture front of our two front "battle".

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

It is just erroneous to put all butches on that continuum. It hurts, is dismissive and simply erroneous- causing as much damage to butches....

For me, this is the community front of the "battle".

The "all butches" part is where we diverge, AtLastHome, assuming we do on this issue. I don't think butches are on the same continuum as those who transition. I think we're on a different trajectory. Again: Why isn't that ok?

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

It gets really difficult to feel like I am walking on a tight rope if I try to talk about being butch as my true state of being as a finished human being....

Life on a "tightrope" is too high a price to pay only to find oneself in a two front "battle".

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I (and many other butches) have spoken to the positive aspects of varying gender theories that are finally flowing within society and in our small population. There is freedom in gender theory that applies to butches as well as transgendered and intergendered folks. And femmes that love them- and butches. I just want to accept this gift and find some peace and happiness. Hurting each other is just not part of that peace.

I haven't found "freedom" in gender theory. I don't mind if others have. I just want to be able to say I haven't without being villified.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Merlin

The not butch enough is between butches .. And what is said or more not said.

Transitioning isn't the natural progression for all butches.

No it isn't and I find this belief to be as harmful as many of the myths about trans and intergendered people. It is important for our entire community to dispell this myth along with transphobic beliefs.

[Greyson]

Chazz, your point about using the word "spectrum" was useful to me. Let me be very clear, I do not see transitioning as the next step for all butches, nor do I see it as an act of trying to be "more butch."

I am not trying to villify you for your beliefs. Butches have been villified throughout our history/herstory and I am sure many of us here have experienced this sort of targeted hate. I consciously try not to do the blame game here. The words I have spoken are based on my experience, reality. I do think that masculinity is not limited to sex, gender, genetics, orientation or testosterone.

I have tried to build bridges in our community in "real life" and here online. I have no desire to split the LGBTQ community into fighting factions. (I am not saying this is your goal. It is not mine.)

I hope this offers something to the discussion on this thread.

[AtLast]

Because all of the SF/Bay Area Pride events are brewing this time of year, I always wonder if I will see and feel a more inclusive and less divided LGBTIQ population. So many of the issues that are being brought out right here in this thread and need to be addressed witin the entire spectrum of queerdom as far as I am concerned.

I don't know (because I have no experience to compare) how large a part of Pride events outside of my geographic location demonstrate more alliance and coalition building for the good of all disenfranchised groups within queerdom. To be honest, although I am so near and join in the SF Pride activities, I am always saddened by the continued divisions between us all. It gets better each year- there is progress- but not nearly enough.

[dreadgeek]

Before I say anything, let me commend the OP and everyone who has posted so far. This is an extraordinarily difficult topic and I'm both proud of folks for being willing to tackle it and pleased that it is being tackled. The degree to which this happens (and humans being humans it would be remarkable if it never happened) is a question I have wanted to take on in writing for a few years now. I first wondered about this a litle more than a decade ago.

I have an ex, D, who I am still very good friends with. At the time, D was seeing this transguy named J. One day, D told me that she was thinking about transitioning. This caught me a little bit by surprise but I wasn't going to tell someone what their process was. I asked her some questions because, quite honestly, I know D well and I just couldn't see it. I asked her what made her think that she might be male and the only thing she could really come up with was that all of the musicians she loved and admired were men--D was and still is a big music geek. At the time, she wanted to be in a band. I suggested that perhaps she might want to give it some thought and that if she was really trans that would be still be there. Then I said I'd support her whatever she did. A few weeks later she was talking about having her first shot of T. Her boyfriend had a line on T through a backchannel. I told her that this seemed an extraordinarily bad idea.

Now, at the time both D and J were going to a trans support group and I wondered to what degree there was some transman being, well, an elder who might be able and willing to say to D, 'let's talk about this'. It didn't happen. Eventually D came to her senses and stopped transitioning before she did something permanent.

This incident has haunted me for a long time because I wondered how many times something like this was being played out and whether we, as a community, had the tools to talk about this topic in an adult and loving manner. So seeing this makes me feel good that the discussion can happen.

On another personal note, the book I've been afraid to write deals with this very question. I'm afraid to write it because, well, I know our people and I know how we can be--sometimes even asking the question "are there really that many more transmen around or is there something else going on" can cause a category five shit storm to erupt into one's life. But of the books that are scattered on my computer half written or mapped out in my head, the one on this question is the one that is burning a hole in my head, demanding to be written. Don't worry, I’m not gathering information or doing research.

I don't have any advice for anyone, although I will say these two things:

1) As Keri said, transitioning is the hardest thing you will ever do. I have often said that next to transition, everything else I will ever do fades into the merely difficult.

2) The only reason to transition is because you feel that something is just a bit off-kilter between body and brain. It won't make your life easier (see 1 above) nor will it fix your quirks and eccentricities. It solves one thing that is out of balance in your life and nothing else. Now, if it solves that problem for you, however, it will change your life and make it a better more comfortable place than you might have imagined possible. And if it doesn't break you along the way, the person who comes out on the other side will be a force of nature. You will know yourself much better and you'll know *precisely* what you are capable of.


Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't know if butches feel pressured by the transmen they encounter, but I do know that more than one butch in my life has expressed feeling pressure to just "be a man," rather than maintain the complex identity of butch or butch woman. This pressure emanates from many places in many ways, not least of which is the the way butch is conflated with male/masculine/man in both queer and non-queer communities.

Add to this the ongoing sexism, homophobia, and misogyny butches face as visible queer females, and the pressure rises. Throw in hierarchies of more/less butch, based upon how "manly" one is, and it can feel like a pressure cooker. So much so that one person I know opted to let go of the identity (at least the label) and have less contact with the B/F/T community, rather than continue to feel evaluated based upon standards she felt no resonance with.


Heart