Ask a trans person!

[Gemme]

Wow. I'm sexist and misogynistic and am experiencing male privilege (since I think I may be included in the 4 you mentioned...maybe not...you weren't entirely clear about who you were addressing)?

You said yourself, Kobi, that "And no one, even our own community, has the right to negate who we are, define who we are, to tell us we are something other than what we are, or to misconstrue the reality of who we are to make it more convenient for or more in tune to what they need us to be in order to validate themselves."

What do you think you are doing to those lesbians who DO love and sleep with other people outside of your narrow scope that identify as lesbian? Yes, the definition of lesbian is rather narrow but then homosexuality was deemed a mental illness for eons. Science has been proven to be slow catching up to reality. So, scientifically, you are correct. Morally? Eh.....you are being hypocritical.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hopelessromantic69

In my opinion no one has the right to define anyone's relationship. I'm not sure why people think they are so important that they can impose their opinions on a whole group of people. We all need to stop slapping labels on people and let them live their life as they see fit.
As a trans man I have been shocked by how a small group of woman in our community like to marginalize FTMs when they them selves are marginalized by our society as a whole. You would think they would have a better understanding of how that feels.
Also, enough with the definitions. They are only someone's opinion anyway. How about we are all just human beings. There! Then no one can judge or hate if we are not defined, categorized or labeled. We are not insects for god sakes.
Sorry JDeere for jumping on my soap box. I get tired of being analyzed just to make a few others feel superior over another group of people.

Yes.

Thank you.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If who you sleep with does not define who and what you are, then you are negating the very essence of not only lesbianism but of homosexuality itself. And you are also negating the concept of sexual orientation.

That is some major homophobia rearing its ugly head.

The fact that people do not find this disturbing on a queer site is mind boggling.

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DaddyChrisCo

Ummm by your definition this is a lesbian site not a queer site.. I don't understand why people have to worry about others bedrooms? Also by your definition STONE BUTCHES would not be lesbians either... so confused who qualifies... In the end your view and the views of other who may share this view dont dictate who others love or their identity... More love in this world and acceptance is what the world truely needs

Yes. If this was a lesbian site, by the above definition..."women loving women with no sexual boundaries", then the site would be cut by probably 75%.

It is my understanding, that this is a butch (as gender) and femme (as gender) site. There is also a long tradition of people who regard themselves as either completely outside of, or somewhat outside of, what is male or female (aka trans), being on a forum like this.

Some of us happen to identify as lesbian, as well.

The site is more about gender and who we are, than who we fuck, in my opinion. We are here because we are all queer and the butch-femme dynamic speaks to us in some way. Some of us have been together since 1998 when another butch-femme forum opened.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Kobi

A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation.

This next part has nothing to do with you JD.

If you believe someone can identify as a lesbian or a female homosexual and sleep with trans or cis men or butches with dont touch my woman parts parameters, you have just negated their homosexuality/lesbianism/same sex orientation. You have just said, they are other than woman oriented, thus not homosexual. That is simple applied logic and common sense.

When a lesbian speaks to this, she does so because her identity as a female homosexual/same sex person is being negated or marginalized or distorted in their own supposed community by their own supposed community members. That is being disrespectful of someone else's identity. It is also homophobic.

And, more amazingly, the 4 of you think a female sticking up for herself and for homosexuals somehow translates into transphobia? Wow, talk about adding insult to injury.

A woman can say she is a lesbian or homosexual and sleep with variations of maleness but that is the antithesis of what a female homosexual is. I can say I am a heterosexual woman who only sleeps with other women but that is the antithesis of a heterosexual. I can say I am a giraffe but the other giraffes just pat me on the head and laugh at me when I do that - long story.

Gay people fight for gay marriage and even gay rights because they are homosexuals - same sex folks who fight for our right to exist, to be seen for who we are, and to be respected for who we are. And who we are are homosexuals - in same sex relationships.

And no one, even our own community, has the right to negate who we are, define who we are, to tell us we are something other than what we are, or to misconstrue the reality of who we are to make it more convenient for or more in tune to what they need us to be in order to validate themselves.

And, as I am on a roll here, this behavior is very much coming from a place of real or imagined male privilege. Hence, it is not only homophobic, it is also sexist and misogynistic.

Thanks for answering!

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by hopelessromantic69

In my opinion no one has the right to define anyone's relationship. I'm not sure why people think they are so important that they can impose their opinions on a whole group of people. We all need to stop slapping labels on people and let them live their life as they see fit.
As a trans man I have been shocked by how a small group of woman in our community like to marginalize FTMs when they them selves are marginalized by our society as a whole. You would think they would have a better understanding of how that feels.
Also, enough with the definitions. They are only someone's opinion anyway. How about we are all just human beings. There! Then no one can judge or hate if we are not defined, categorized or labeled. We are not insects for god sakes.
Sorry JDeere for jumping on my soap box. I get tired of being analyzed just to make a few others feel superior over another group of people.

I was asking for my own knowledge to try to understand where Koni is coming from, not to hear other's go off on a soapbox. Enjoy your day.

[*Anya*]

I don't even know where to start.

I can't believe the negative turn that this thread has taken.

Kobi, to quote you, yes, the following is correct:

>>>snip<<<

"A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation."

The following, according to my own perception and knowledge is also correct:

1. This website is not a strictly lesbian website. Some of the admins may be but it has always been stressed that it is open to everyone on the continuum of identity and sexuality.

2. I did not know that when I arrived here. I was surprised. I had thought it was a butch femme lesbian site.

3. I quickly realized that how I did lesbian was not the same as everyone else's and if I did not like it or did not feel comfortable here: I could simply move on.

4. I decided to learn, to grow, to work on being less judgmental and rigid in my thinking.

5. I do not think that it is homophobic for any LGBTQ person to identify themselves however they see fit and for whatever may feel comfortable.

6. I am a lesbian. I only date, fall in love with and have sex with female-identified butch lesbians. I will always jump in when I feel lesbians are being attacked, put down or if lesbiphobia is going on.

Example, I read the following sentence and did not like it at all: "I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq".

It is those kind of generalizing statements that push my buttons. It would be as though I would say, "I find that trans folk are the most judgmental...".

Let's not lump all people in one pile please! Some lesbians are judgmental. Some trans folk are judgmental. Some people, in general are judgmental.

Have folks given thought to how some lesbians may be feeling? Especially older lesbians? As a group, in the LGBTQ, community, we may have become more inclusive and our circle has widened, but as a lesbian, there are fewer female-butch lesbians than there used to be.

Many butch lesbians find, through the process of finding their real, true self, that they want to transition. That is good for them but as a lesbian, sexually and emotionally attracted to female-identified butches: I have a sense of loss. A loss of another lesbian. That is not transphobia. That is reality. One can take that personally or one can gain a little understanding of where some lesbians may be coming from. I say some because I can't speak for all lesbians!

None of us can speak for others. Perhaps we can offer some different perspectives and hopefully, we are willing to be open-minded enough to learn and grow from it.

I hope that in the same way, we need to understand the journey of a trans person and be able to put ourselves in those shoes; that trans folk can also understand where some lesbians may be coming from.

I think that as a community, we will self-destruct if we do not accept each other. I do not feel that anyone, anywhere gets to identify someone else. We just do not have that right.

Yes, there are scientific definitions of every sexuality and identity but as human beings, we get to define ourselves. We get to decide how open and accepting we are.

I define lesbian my way.

I fought hard to do that and no one gets to tell me I am wrong.

No one.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Yes. If this was a lesbian site, by the above definition..."women loving women with no sexual boundaries", then the site would be cut by probably 75%.

It is my understanding, that this is a butch (as gender) and femme (as gender) site. There is also a long tradition of people who regard themselves as either completely outside of, or somewhat outside of, what is male or female (aka trans), being on a forum like this.

Some of us happen to identify as lesbian, as well.

The site is more about gender and who we are, than who we fuck, in my opinion. We are here because we are all queer and the butch-femme dynamic speaks to us in some way. Some of us have been together since 1998 when another butch-femme forum opened.

I remember the old site... I'm not trying to disrespect anyone on here but for someone to make it seem like peoe who aren't cut and dry just lesbians is disrespectful in itself.ty Dapper foe your input..

[Kobi]

First off, Gemme I was not including you in the 4. So you can nix that misconception.

As far as the rest I am now confused.

You tell us a FTM means a female to a male. And a MTF means a male to female.

I am not questioning how you got to male or female. I am factoring your self identity into the definitions of sexual orientation.

But now it appears you are saying sexual orientation, like gender, is a social construct. Hence, sexual orientation must be looked at as irrelevant and immaterial to who people are and how they see themselves.

Thats going to be news to those of us who see ourselves as gay, lesbian, homosexual and bisexual. Being gay, lesbian, homosexual, or bisexual is a huge part of who we are, how we define ourselves, the essence of who we are, and how we relate to the world. Whether it is too narrowly focused for YOUR tastes does not mean WE have to change to accommodate YOU.

It means we have the right to be seen for who we are, by our definition, for us. And, that definition is for us to make not you. This is our identity and it should be honored and respected, not negated, hijacked, or misconstrued to be something else.

If this doesnt suit another part of the spectrum, who thinks they have the right to define gay, lesbians, homosexual, and bisexuals people in a way that suits themselves is a problem of another sort.

The fact this is not seen as negating, homophobic, lesbophobic, biphobic and downright rude is very disturbing. It is a giant slap in the face and very disturbing.

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by DaddyChrisCo

I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq... so you are saying in your eyes ftm and people Like Me Queer Middle sexed people should not be here??? That's the very definition of homophobia... and non acceptance of every flavor of Our big rainbow... Not every lesbian is just a simple butch or femme... there are many spectrums... the lesbian community lacks acceptance of things other than the cookie cutter "lesbian "... makes Me very sad

I agree...I find the "We must adhere and keep to lesbian ideas of purity" to be repugnant since I did not fit into what they considered "lesbian" when I first came out. I was shunned within the lesbian community because I did not "fit" their ideas about what being lesbian was. Seriously, fuck those kinds of social constructs.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

I agree...I find the "We must adhere and keep to lesbian ideas of purity" to be repugnant since I did not fit into what they considered "lesbian" when I first came out. I was shunned within the lesbian community because I did not "fit" their ideas about what being lesbian was. Seriously, fuck those kinds of social constructs.

Glad so me one else gets it... I was born different and I wont let anyone define who or what I am.. people need to band together not drawn lines in the sand... if the l gbtq community dont support each other then We will continue to struggle to be equal in the eyes of the world and with each other

[Kobi]

And while I am at, let me say this as well.

And, in my 61 years, I was never subjected to any outright display of homophobia by the public. I am now.

As an atypical woman who is very proud to be a woman, who accepts and really likes all her female parts, and who has always done woman my way, I am tired of well meaning people in the world thinking they are doing something noble, sensitive, and accepting by referring to my atypicalness as trans.

It is a royal slap in the face to me. They dont mean to be derogatory or rude, nor do they even understand they are being derogatory and rude. But they are. And that narrative didnt come from me. But, I have to continually address it.

I also now get called a fucking faggot by people who are upset by and confused by transgenderism. They are equating trans with gay, gender with sexual orientation because they see an umbrella that starts with LGB, thus everything thereafter is also LBG. It is easier for them to call me a fucking faggot than to flip thru the manual so know who they are really upset with.

I got used to being scrutinized when I went into gender segregated public bathrooms and locker rooms. Now, I get antsy because people equate me with something I am not and see me as a threat to them and their children.

And, I come here, someplace that should be a safe place for me and I get more shit from people who should know better. Why does this happen? Cuz I have the audacity to stand up stand up for being a proud biological woman and a lesbian.

And, you accuse me of not acting in MY best interests because you dont like how I vote or how I decide who to vote for. Gays, blacks, immigrants not voting democrat? OMG what a sacrilege.

And yet, when I do act in MY best interests as a woman and a lesbian and speak to it, you tell me I dont have the right to do that cuz my definitions are too narrow for your tastes?

You want me to have your back but apparently it is a one way street. There is no reciprocity. And any attempt to discuss it is automatically denounced as transphobic when you actual behavior is homophobic.

There is something screwed up in the way people think these days and it keeps getting more and more screwy and disturbing.

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And while I am at, let me say this as well.

And, in my 61 years, I was never subjected to any outright display of homophobia by the public. I am now.

As an atypical woman who is very proud to be a woman, who accepts and really likes all her female parts, and who has always done woman my way, I am tired of well meaning people in the world thinking they are doing something noble, sensitive, and accepting by referring to my atypicalness as trans.

It is a royal slap in the face to me. They dont mean to be derogatory or rude, nor do they even understand they are being derogatory and rude. But they are. And that narrative didnt come from me. But, I have to continually address it.

I also now get called a fucking faggot by people who are upset by and confused by transgenderism. They are equating trans with gay, gender with sexual orientation because they see an umbrella that starts with LGB, thus everything thereafter is also LBG. It is easier for them to call me a fucking faggot than to flip thru the manual so know who they are really upset with.

I got used to being scrutinized when I went into gender segregated public bathrooms and locker rooms. Now, I get antsy because people equate me with something I am not and see me as a threat to them and their children.

And, I come here, someplace that should be a safe place for me and I get more shit from people who should know better. Why does this happen? Cuz I have the audacity to stand up stand up for being a proud biological woman and a lesbian.

And, you accuse me of not acting in MY best interests because you dont like how I vote or how I decide who to vote for. Gays, blacks, immigrants not voting democrat? OMG what a sacrilege.

And yet, when I do act in MY best interests as a woman and a lesbian and speak to it, you tell me I dont have the right to do that cuz my definitions are too narrow for your tastes?

You want me to have your back but apparently it is a one way street. There is no reciprocity. And any attempt to discuss it is automatically denounced as transphobic when you actual behavior is homophobic.

There is something screwed up in the way people think these days and it keeps getting more and more screwy and disturbing.

First no one said do by be proud too be a woman.. I said don't make your views the ma factory view.. I never said anything about your political views either so don't k ow where that is coming from.. it seems to Me someone mistreated you so now you don't like that which you were seen as.. that's not My fault it's societies fault... I ha e had to use the male bathroom since I was 15 do to no doing of Myh own do I k ow very well about the struggles and bei g called faggot and Dyke and freak... Mobil you do you bud I am done with this thread as it is called ask trans anything and no. Trans are in here mucking it up.. have a good weekend and try to let that chip on your shoulder go.. I am not the enemy.. narrow mindedness is

[Medusa]

Folks:


We have had some reported posts in the last couple of days so let me clarify a few things so that we can keep this discussion moving:

1. This is a queer site, not just a lesbian site, and most certainly not just a site for Butches and Femmes.

2. The Butch and Femme Community has always consisted of people who identify in all different kinds of ways. That is not always comfortable for other people but we need to be focusing on how we identify within ourselves and not policing how other people identify.

3. Who you fuck does not determine how you can identify. That is a patriarchal notion that often subjugates women and gay men based on who gets penetrated, and obviously that's bullshit.

4. Gender is fluid, unless it isn't for you. Identity is contextual, unless it isn't for you. Your Feminism may adjust based on your experiences, unless it doesn't. Bottom line, how you do you is your business and how other people do them is their business. That doesn't mean we don't question bad behavior or call out sexism, but when it comes to personal identity politics maybe we can put more energy into listening to each other and less energy into telling each other who you must be based on my own narrative.


Also? It is super problematic to have folks who don't identify as Trans in a Trans thread telling Trans people about their lives as much as it is having folks who don't identify as Lesbian in a Lesbian thread telling Lesbians about their lives. Let's be conscious of one another's space, ok?


Thanks,
Angie

[hopelessromantic69]

Originally Posted by JDeere

I was asking for my own knowledge to try to understand where Koni is coming from, not to hear other's go off on a soapbox. Enjoy your day.

Sorry about that. I shouldn't have tied it to your post.

[DapperButch]

So, who has a question they want to ask a trans person? Welcome to the site, Esme! Sorry, it got all wonky.

[Esme nha Maire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

So, who has a question they want to ask a trans person? Welcome to the site, Esme! Sorry, it got all wonky.

(Chuckle) you've no need to apologise to me, m'dear!

I do have a question, actually. Did anyone else - MTF or FTM - initially go for the societal stereotype of how they perceived their correct gender to present, then over time find that that's maybe not the best fit for who they are?

[AmazonDC]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

(Chuckle) you've no need to apologise to me, m'dear!

I do have a question, actually. Did anyone else - MTF or FTM - initially go for the societal stereotype of how they perceived their correct gender to present, then over time find that that's maybe not the best fit for who they are?

Absolutely... I wore the dresses and makeup and tried to be a "WOMAN" but because of My CHA I just excepted that I have no gender genetically so now I am male identified and happy as I am..

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by hopelessromantic69

Sorry about that. I shouldn't have tied it to your post.

I'm calling bullshit. Not to you, hopeless, but because you were made to feel as if you should apologize. Your post was fine and very well said. It wasn't hurtful and any question asked publicly is open for discussion by any and all. No apology necessary to anyone or for anything.

I have a question, Dapper.

Did anyone else watch Transformers and wish they would turn into counterparts? Seriously. I used to wish it and everything. I pulled a turkey bone once on it.

[Vivacious1]

Hey Dapper!
Thanks for your thoughts.
Unfortunately, when I was going through the surgery with my ex, I was naïve at best. I supported him fully with his transition, but honestly had no idea what I was really getting involved with. I wish we would have seen a therapist!!!! I guess the point was that I was overwhelmed by the responsibility of his care after surgery

As far as my other questions, I am talking about a Trans man dating any female. (straight or gay) I have had this conversation with trans men and several felt that it was their right to not disclose transitioning. So, in essence their date is blind to the whole story... what if it goes further???? what if they end up making out???? Is that fair? Or is the date an ass because when they get to that point of making out, she is not ok with either the fact he is trans or the fact that he wasn't honest???

Hope that cleared it up