Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Talk about patriarchy till you are blue in the face, can it be done without the word breeder though???

How hurtful the word breeder is.......

Okay Snow, no Dylan in the equation. The title of this thread uses the word "breeder," so I'm not sure how to talk about how hurtful that word is, without using the word. We could say b******.

For me to talk about that word and how it has harmed me, I would talk about patriarchy. But that's me.

Not trying to nag, but just not getting how I'm not on topic.

Heart

[suebee]

I really hate to see this type of back-and-forth on the site. It usually accomplishes nothing. But for whatever it's worth:

I believe that context is everything! Using an offensive word to describe an offensive concept/situation/whatever is pretty effective. It doesn't mean that the example extends to everyone.

As for the word "breeder": thinking back to my days in child protection I could have used the word back then. People who had baby after baby and had no interest in actually raising them. Giving birth to a child, or contributing your genetic sample to the process does not a parent make. My folks would be a pretty good example of that. Kudos to all the Moms and Dads out there who actually raised their children!

As for the actual word in question: as I've said - I don't use it anymore even though I've never heard it used in a deliberately offensive fashion. But it's just on my list of "no sense in using if it might offend somebody" words.

We have a myriad of ways of marginalizing each other. It sure seems like a helluva way to treat each other, especially since every single one of us on this site is already marginalized by society at large. But I think it's really just human nature. It's a way of making us feel that we're okay.

So, in summary:
dissing people just because they're not like you - not cool
thinking that simply the fact that you've given birth to a child makes you a REAL mother (or father) - getta life
having made the decision to have a child (whether planned or not) and hanging there and being that one safe place through thick and thin - WAY cool, and nothing but respect to each and every one of you.

's blurb over.

[Miss Scarlett]

I admit to having uttered this word as a slur, in selfish anger, a time or many in the past. I learned this use of the word as a slur from an ex years ago. It's no longer in my vocabulary in this context.

BTW this doesn't make me a better person, just a bit wiser in my choice of words. I've got no business calling anyone names when I don't like to be on the receiving end of that myself. When my bad behaviour manifests itself it reminds me to strive to be better and that I am to live by the commandment in the Torah - "V'ahavta l'rayacha kamocha" ("You shall love your neighbor as yourself.) Something that is much easier said than done and is a constant struggle for everyone - humans being what we are and the world being what it is (as in far from perfect). I had this explained to me by a rabbi as "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor."

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Heart

Okay Snow, no Dylan in the equation. The title of this thread uses the word "breeder," so I'm not sure how to talk about how hurtful that word is, without using the word. We could say b******.

For me to talk about that word and how it has harmed me, I would talk about patriarchy. But that's me.

Not trying to nag, but just not getting how I'm not on topic.

Heart

I would love to hear what you have to say about the word, including the patriarchy part.

[firie]

Originally Posted by IrishGrrl

OFFS..

Lets just start a thread called

"out of context fuck ups"

or

"let's kick Dylan's ass"

Seriously,

We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!

Hey pretty girl!

I did it already this morning. His ass is officially kicked.

I don't like the term, because it's obviously hurtful. Dylan and I know that. I wouldn't refer to my mom that way, nor would Dylan. I think though I have used it in the context of saying that "patriarchy expects women to be as such" when clearly women are not and should not be seen as such.

But then we've already had the round and round discussion on that.

We respect women. Dylan respects women (or I wouldn't be with him).

One last note...I repped Sue to say that when I was a caseworker with CPS years ago, judges actually used the term (and one in particular here in Austin) to throw at women to make them feel bad for having so many children without thought as to what was happening to the children. Fathers were referred to as "sperm donors" and the mothers, just vessels for that, or the B word. It was gross and humiliating for women. Nevermind that the judge did not realize in one particular case that the woman had been gangraped oh say 7 or 8 times. Nevermind that in another case a woman had been raped and decided to keep and struggle through raising her daughter. Nevermind any of that.

**ETA** (I am not saying or condoning that a judge should ever use the term against women, but am pointing out specifically how assumptions were made and placed on the women despite her circumstance, which is some really fucked up shit all the way around, so please don't misread me here! Thanks.)

And Snow: Will you please buy me a cuppa coffee instead? I promise, I am much better company!!!

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Nat

I would love to hear what you have to say about the word, including the patriarchy part.

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?

[friskyfemme]

After reading through this thread and responses to words used in other threads perceived as 'offensive', I have to say I am sitting here with a wrinkled brow.

I am thinking that some here just enjoy debating, some here are supersensitive to word choices, some are narcisstic, some are referees, some are educators, some are activists.

I agree that words are powerful weapons and powerful expressions of thought. We, humans, in years past were raised by the rules determined in our small corner of the world in which we were raised. This includes morals, ideas, spiritual belief, image of self,
image of others and opportunities. IMHO, when we are adults, we have the ability to decipher whether what we were exposed to growing up 'fits' into the collective Society(whatever it is). I firmly believe in exchange of ideas and opinions. What I strongly object to is the 'one ups' some seem to have in response to another's opinion. I don't think anyone should have to defend what word or phrases they find offensive. If it offenses anyone, than once I you're aware of it. Dont repeat it! (unless of course that is your intention than the you 'deserve/wish' to be dissed)

What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive.

This from a mother, grandmother, woman, femme, lover of stones, human being.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am confused by all this right....

I can't understand how someone asking for the word breeder not to be used to describe a woman's pregnancy can not be understood..

I am not stupid I understand the patriarchy, and what was hammered into us.

But can't it be understood that maybe when some of us hear that word, it makes us cringe, cause god damn I was pregnant, not bred, and it was a terrifying, happy, life altering experience..

It fucking SUCKS to have it reduced to nothing when someone calls you a breeder or refers to it as a breeder thing or have been bred or any insinuation of that...

Can't you get that? Cause that is what we are saying at least I am.

Damn, it would be like me being an inconsiderate ass hat and refering to someone as hy when they are she...


end of rant.

[JakeTulane]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?

(respectfully)

wax... I say .. why not this thread? That is what this thread was started about. .. the usage of the word breeder and other words that make us "cringe" (as Snow said). I believe Nat posed a good question to Heart in asking what her feelings are on the word usage and the patriarchy that she mentioned as well.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by friskyfemme

What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive.

That was the original intention of this thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?

Why the hell not in here?

We aren't some frail wall flowers who can't hear the word. damn.

Let's have the hard discussion about the word. How it's used to oppress, to describe, and to hurt women with..

It's what this thread is about hurtful terms here lemme requote the title of the thread for ya..

Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

I even emphasized it for ya

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

That was the original intention of this thread.

Right????

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Why the hell not in here?

We aren't some frail wall flowers who can't hear the word. damn.

Let's have the hard discussion about the word. How it's used to oppress, to describe, and to hurt women with..

It's what this thread is about hurtful terms here lemme requote the title of the thread for ya..

Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

I even emphasized it for ya

Ok, now wait a minute, because when I brought up that exact conversation...you said not to use the word.

When I made the points you've said here regarding the patriarchy, you said you didn't want to hear the word because it's been used against you and you're sensitive to it.

So what is it? You want to have the conversation, or are we not allowed to say the word. I'm getting mixed messages


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Ok, now wait a minute, because when I brought up that exact conversation...you said not to use the word.

When I made the points you've said here regarding the patriarchy, you said you didn't want to hear the word because it's been used against you and you're sensitive to it.

So what is it? You want to have the conversation, or are we not allowed to say the word. I'm getting mixed messages


Dylan

yanno..

I am done...

I think I have explained over and over and over what I meant.

Use the word, don't use it I don't give a fuck at this point

[Oneida]

I've used the term in reference to straight women because, if I'm being honest, it was a way to disparage them and their choices in order to make me feel better about the fact that I did not have children/family of my own/picket fence (and at that/those moments DID want that). Let's face it, it's a mean/ugly word used to put someone down and elevate oneself. Why do we do that? For my example, I'd say it was #2.


Why We Judge (just a little list found on the internet w/ a quick search)

1. We don’t know how to love.
2. We are insecure.
3. We are influenced by our past conditioning.
4. We are afraid of something in someone else.
5. We are afraid of something within ourselves.
6. We are hiding the fact that we don’t understand something.
7. Our position of power feels threatened.
8. We are unaware about how our thoughts become reality.
9. We aren’t evolved enough to have empathy for others.
10. It’s a habit.

[SassyLeo]

In the 80's/90's when my dad came out in SF, breeder was a word I heard ALL THE TIME. Not specifically in company of family or friends (though I am sure it happened) but just out in the world. Especially in the Castro on days when a demonstration was taking place on the corner or during Pride. Again, this was 15 to 20 years ago. Even though I was a teenager at the time, I knew what it meant and that it was used as a derogatory term aimed at someone who had just said something homophobic or in "gay boy talk" as I call it or caddy, gossipy talk - (again years ago...)

I do not use the word and rarely hear it these days in my world. I have never heard the word being used in a positive way.

In terms of women being bred to have children, I agree with the history of patriarchy in the world...in old traditional, religious cultures, women get married and have children. It is what they believe women are "to do". This is a -generalization-. I'm not saying all women are this way and all cultures are this way, etc.

The last century has changed and shifted what women's roles are, specifically in more lieberal countries, obviously. I think women are raised to make their own choices about children. We are not forced to have them. We also can have them without a husband or partner. We can adopt. We have choices.

My parents had very traditional and incredibly dysfunctional and mostly pretty crappy upbringings and they set out to do pretty much the exact opposite with me.

I decided many years ago that I did not want to have children. A personal choice. I've always been upfront with my parents about not wanting children of my own and they support me either way. I NEVER felt pressure to get married, not get married, have kids, not have kids, I've always been told I have choices.

Of course, my parents are queer...so I realize I am kind of an anomaly

And I have friends who have children and I think it is wonderful! I admire their love and dedication. I love being a pseudo auntie. I watched one of my best friends through her pregnancy and birth of her daughter. It was amazing. And if someone had deemed her a breeder from that incredible experience... well, that's awful.

Of course, when my grandfather died a couple of years ago, I went with my parents to his funeral with a ton of family I hadn't seen in years. One of the first things out of my 78 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

yanno..

I am done...

I think I have explained over and over and over what I meant.

Use the word, don't use it I don't give a fuck at this point

Alright. I get what you're saying.

My original use of the word was in a patriarchal sense in that women have been viewed as baby making machines (aka breeders) for thousands and thousands of years. It's laced and woven into each of the three main religions that have ruled western society.

It's even the basis for this whole "mothers are saints" idea that has seeped into this thread. Becoming pregnant is not necessarily a 'sacred' act. It's a biological process. Giving birth doesn't automatically make any person a sacred being, saintly figure, loving person, or exalted being. It simply means a biological process has taken place. Yet, once again...thanks to patrairchy, when a person (generally a married woman) completes this process that person is seen as a sacred being (mother mary full of grace) (unless that person is unwed, at which point that person (meaning the woman) is seen as 'soiled'.

And yes, I'm speaking patriarchally and not about myself, particular people, ALL men, etc


Dylan

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

One of the first things out of my 75 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Oneida

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan