Permission to propose

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok I am twitching again.

In your eyes, women rule the world one way or another because we raised (and gave birth to btw) the men in power, and cuz we are married to the men in power. And, somehow more and more we are assuming that power and its not necessarily a bad thing.

Ok might be a back handed chauvinistic attempt at a compliment. Im not sure.

Have you heard of the War on Women that is going on?

Unfortunately, since you don't truly know me your perception of me is made via words in a screen. People that DO truly know me know that;
1. I am not chauvinistic.
2. I have HUGE respect for women.
3. I'm working on my communication skills, coupled with the fact that I seriously hate texting, but enjoy a good conversation, I'm finding this medium to be challenging.

I am sorry for your twitching.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by aishah

i had no idea that thread was supposed to be about heteronormative relationships. i thought it was about trans folks and partners of trans folks (heteronormative or not).

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".

Me too, i'm confused. i hope i didn't speak up out of turn!

[aishah]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".

snow referred steph to this thread:
Spouses/Partners of Transmen and transwomen... in the trans zone.
i got confused because i didn't think the thread was specifically about heteronormative relationships.

it's cool, we cleared up the confusion. (i think.)

[firegal]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I missed the trans part. I thought it was just a general thread in "Dating, Marriage, Family".

I think she was thinking of the "spouses/partners of transmen and transwomen" thread that stephmit also started.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master.

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

[stephfromMIT]

Originally Posted by firegal

I think she was thinking of the "spouses/partners of transmen and transwomen" thread that stephmit also started.

I didn't start that thread! I did post in it though. (once)

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

Thanks Island Scout and Kobi!!!!

Just goes to show *us* so many, many traditions were made on the backbone of women and in a very negative light. Shouldn't surprise me really. Anything to make us look weak or less than. Ugggg. Things we take for granted as not being full of misogyny that turns out it is.

And here i thought the "carrying over the threshold" was somehow being sweet or kind or something.

Makes one wonder what else we do or say in everyday life even that is not what it seems.

Certainly opens my eyes.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Thanks Island Scout and Kobi!!!!

Just goes to show *us* so many, many traditions were made on the backbone of women. Things we take for granted as not being full of misogyny that turns out it is.

And here i thought the "carrying over the threshold" was somehow being sweet or kind or something.

Makes one wonder what else we do or say in even everyday life that is not what it seems.

Certainly opens my eyes.

Maybe, Princess Belle, couples can apply their own meaning to traditions like carrying the bride over the threshold, and make them "new" in that way.

You know, they use that term "the new classic" in advertising—I think we have the freedom, well even straight people have the freedom, to reinvent traditions as our own.

Carrying someone over the threshold could be, "We will honor our different strengths. Your muscles carried me over the threshold but my salary got us the room. We'll pool our resources and together make a great team."

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Maybe, Princess Belle, couples can apply their own meaning to traditions like carrying the bride over the threshold, and make them "new" in that way.

You know, they use that term "the new classic" in advertising—I think we have the freedom, well even straight people have the freedom, to reinvent traditions as our own.

Carrying someone over the threshold could be, "We will honor our different strengths. Your muscles carried me over the threshold but my salary got us the room. We'll pool our resources and together make a great team."

Good idea. Sounds like that could even be a great thread. State a tradition then research the actual real meaning and then make a new meaning.

I like it

Or is there a thread like that? A thread of new traditions. Would be interesting to read what other peeps traditions are as well.

Just a thought.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Good idea. Sounds like that could even be a great thread. State a tradition then research the actual real meaning and then make a new meaning.

I like it

Or is there a thread like that? A thread of new traditions. Would be interesting to read what other peeps traditions are as well.

Just a thought.

I bet so many thoughtful couples are already doing that; carefully considering the meaning behind what they're doing and taking a conscious role in shaping it. I agree, it would be interested to hear about.

[Martina]

I thought the threshold thing had to do with doors being bad luck. If she stepped on it or fell, then the marriage would be cursed. Or something like that.

[girl_dee]

in the end we all get to decide what works for us. For me, i don't tend to adopt the traditional ways. Like i haven't and would never take another's name in marriage. It' s lovely that some do but i am not giving up or changing my name for the sake of tradition. i feel like more of a well rounded individual with my own set of beliefs, spirituality and traditions, rather than adopting my partners. Again that's my own stance.

[Corkey]

I think the blending of lives should always be up to the couple doing it. Ours was and is a amalgamation of who we are as a couple and as individuals. So we're happy, that I believe is as it should be.

[girl_dee]

When i tended bar i was told never to let a woman's shoe touch the bar, that it was bad luck.

i didn't get it.

[girl_dee]

Tying The Knot

The expression "tie the knot" comes from Roman times when the bride wore a girdle that was tied in knots which the groom had the fun of untying.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Martina

I thought the threshold thing had to do with doors being bad luck. If she stepped on it or fell, then the marriage would be cursed. Or something like that.

The history is fascinating to weed thru. The threshold thing has changed throughout the ages, differing in cultures and countries, and folklore. The point you make was valid at one time as well.

Interesting to see how things have changed and continue to change.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think the blending of lives should always be up to the couple doing it. Ours was and is a amalgamation of who we are as a couple and as individuals. So we're happy, that I believe is as it should be.

Absolutely!!!!! Bully and i have our own traditions as well. I find those very fascinating and also what the meanings of those are "way back when". I was just thinking it may be a good thread.

I didn't mean to imply we don't have our own traditions. As couples or singles.

Just thought it was interesting.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Tying The Knot

The expression "tie the knot" comes from Roman times when the bride wore a girdle that was tied in knots which the groom had the fun of untying.

Fun! I could that being made contemporary by creative couples, for sure.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Tying The Knot

The expression "tie the knot" comes from Roman times when the bride wore a girdle that was tied in knots which the groom had the fun of untying.

Or,

Tying the Knot - Calling marriage "tying the knot" stems from ancient times. The Danish used to tie two pieces of cord or ribbon together in the marriage ceremony to signify the couple’s becoming one. Later the custom spread to Holland and England.

http://limarriages.com/customs.html

One could spend hours (and I have cuz it is tickling my curiosity) trying to trace all the parts of traditions from all over the world. God only knows what the truth is tho. LOL.