Permission to propose

[Kobi]

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master.

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

[stephfromMIT]

desd-Other than our officiant being a UU minister, our weddings are quite similiar.

Kobi-VERY interesting info on traditions and their origins.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master.

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Thanks Kobi, for pulling this information together.

I was poking around online last week and reading about the carry-over-threshold tradition, and learned that in addition to what you share above, the bride was carried because it was believed that if a bride tripped walking over the wheat thresh people kept at the door to minimize mud tracking, bad spirits would seize the moment to enter the home.

Apparently no one was worried about the groom tripping, or providing somehow, in the process of tripping, a way for evil spirits to take advantage as they seek access to a home or family or group of people.

A theme in many of these traditions is that women are weak links, among humans; that women are more vulnerable to doing and abetting evil. It's a misogynist view of women and prevalent in a lot of cultures.

**********

Other people have said this but I want to add that what I would do if I were getting married is pick and choose from all the traditions and go with whichever ones resonate for us or which we can re-invent, to fit my and my partner's values.

Thanks Island Scout and Kobi!!!!

Just goes to show *us* so many, many traditions were made on the backbone of women and in a very negative light. Shouldn't surprise me really. Anything to make us look weak or less than. Ugggg. Things we take for granted as not being full of misogyny that turns out it is.

And here i thought the "carrying over the threshold" was somehow being sweet or kind or something.

Makes one wonder what else we do or say in everyday life even that is not what it seems.

Certainly opens my eyes.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Thanks Island Scout and Kobi!!!!

Just goes to show *us* so many, many traditions were made on the backbone of women. Things we take for granted as not being full of misogyny that turns out it is.

And here i thought the "carrying over the threshold" was somehow being sweet or kind or something.

Makes one wonder what else we do or say in even everyday life that is not what it seems.

Certainly opens my eyes.

Maybe, Princess Belle, couples can apply their own meaning to traditions like carrying the bride over the threshold, and make them "new" in that way.

You know, they use that term "the new classic" in advertising—I think we have the freedom, well even straight people have the freedom, to reinvent traditions as our own.

Carrying someone over the threshold could be, "We will honor our different strengths. Your muscles carried me over the threshold but my salary got us the room. We'll pool our resources and together make a great team."

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Maybe, Princess Belle, couples can apply their own meaning to traditions like carrying the bride over the threshold, and make them "new" in that way.

You know, they use that term "the new classic" in advertising—I think we have the freedom, well even straight people have the freedom, to reinvent traditions as our own.

Carrying someone over the threshold could be, "We will honor our different strengths. Your muscles carried me over the threshold but my salary got us the room. We'll pool our resources and together make a great team."

Good idea. Sounds like that could even be a great thread. State a tradition then research the actual real meaning and then make a new meaning.

I like it

Or is there a thread like that? A thread of new traditions. Would be interesting to read what other peeps traditions are as well.

Just a thought.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Good idea. Sounds like that could even be a great thread. State a tradition then research the actual real meaning and then make a new meaning.

I like it

Or is there a thread like that? A thread of new traditions. Would be interesting to read what other peeps traditions are as well.

Just a thought.

I bet so many thoughtful couples are already doing that; carefully considering the meaning behind what they're doing and taking a conscious role in shaping it. I agree, it would be interested to hear about.

[girl_dee]

in the end we all get to decide what works for us. For me, i don't tend to adopt the traditional ways. Like i haven't and would never take another's name in marriage. It' s lovely that some do but i am not giving up or changing my name for the sake of tradition. i feel like more of a well rounded individual with my own set of beliefs, spirituality and traditions, rather than adopting my partners. Again that's my own stance.

[Corkey]

I think the blending of lives should always be up to the couple doing it. Ours was and is a amalgamation of who we are as a couple and as individuals. So we're happy, that I believe is as it should be.

[girl_dee]

When i tended bar i was told never to let a woman's shoe touch the bar, that it was bad luck.

i didn't get it.

[Martina]

I thought the threshold thing had to do with doors being bad luck. If she stepped on it or fell, then the marriage would be cursed. Or something like that.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Martina

I thought the threshold thing had to do with doors being bad luck. If she stepped on it or fell, then the marriage would be cursed. Or something like that.

The history is fascinating to weed thru. The threshold thing has changed throughout the ages, differing in cultures and countries, and folklore. The point you make was valid at one time as well.

Interesting to see how things have changed and continue to change.