What you may not know about Chick-fil-A

[BullDog]

Here is what some of the gay employees are going through right now. It doesn't sound like they are hearing much about love and peace from recent patrons.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular

[weatherboi]

This whole chik fil a thing has brought me to feel if I am spending my queer dollars with a company that gives to super pacs and their officers give to the GOP party I am probably giving money indirectly to anti lgbt organizations. The list of businesses to support could get long including small businesses that still fall under the mom and pop spectrum that are local.
:brainexplosion:

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Martina

Well, they are challenging the separation of church and state at every turn. Not just legally, but as pseudo-historians. They actually believe there was no intention to separate church and state by the founders.

They would like to refound the country as a Christian nation based on what they understand as Christian values, forcing us all to adhere to them by law.

That is as un-American as it is possible to be, in my opinion.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-state/240481/

Thanks Martina... i see your point...the article is very interesting and shows that the argument and challenges as to separation of church and state have been going on almost 200 years...but i don't believe those folks are not Americans or un-American...i don't agree with them at all but it is very American to stand up and challenge things or to fight for what you believe in...that's what led to the founding of this Country and also to social change...

i don't think they will be successful in refounding the Country according to their values but at the same time we absolutely cannot be complacent when it comes to social issues, our rights or our leaders...we must vote for the candidates and issues we believe in and not leave it up to everyone else to fight to fight for us...

If the passage of Amendment One (NC marriage amendment) taught us (i'm referring to the LGBT community here in NC) anything i hope it taught us to get out and vote against these things rather than merely paying them lipservice or believing that your (speaking in general terms not addressing any one person) vote will not make a difference...

Can you imagine what would happen if we turned out to vote with the same dogged passion and in the proportionate numbers as the Chick-fil-a supporters the other day?

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

This whole chik fil a thing has brought me to feel if I am spending my queer dollars with a company that gives to super pacs and their officers give to the GOP party I am probably giving money indirectly to anti lgbt organizations. The list of businesses to support could get long including small businesses that still fall under the mom and pop spectrum that are local.
:brainexplosion:

True...all we can do is keep our eyes & ears open and decide accordingly...HRC publishes an annual guide or rating...a good indicator (in my small town anyway) with regard to the mom & pop places are what political signs do they allow on their property...

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

Unfortunately, with activism, a lot of the time you don't get to choose your fights. I sure would not have chosen gay marriage as the central issue of the fight for lgbtq rights. Look at that map that Howsoonisnow posted showing all the states where we can be fired for being gay. That's an issue I could get behind with more enthusiasm. But inevitably, because my enemies were coming after me on the gay marriage issue, I stood behind it too.

I think that whenever we are attacked, we should stand up. I don't care if people like us. They don't have to. What they need to know is that every time they try to hurt us, we are going to stand up to them using every resource at our disposal: protests, lawsuits, boycotts, art, and so on.

I don't care about the corporation itself. But all those people out there supporting them -- I want some of us out there looking them in the eyes letting them know that we see them for the bigots they are.

I disagree with this. There are plenty of examples of ways in which communal activism does not mean single-issue "activism." Most protests (at least here) are like that. For example, at Slut Walk most of us were not simply protesting the words of the police officer who inspired the inception of Slut Walk. As Slut Walk moved past its first annual march, you saw people protesting a multitude of issues, and speeches that moved beyond that one event and touched many experiences and many issues. The same thing goes with many of the queer marches here, that are not single-issue, but give people the avenue to voice all forms of oppression that touch our community.

I think the methods of the mainstream lgbt community in the States isn't all that great. Basically, right now its seems their tactic is to just react to every little thing the religious right throws at them. Someone expresses anti-same-sex marriage beliefs and they react. Someone calls homosexuality a sin and they react.

Activism needs to be more than just a series of isolated reactions to individual celebrity opinions. That doesn't cover the whole problem, and often what ends up happening is that less and less attention is given to portions of the queer community that are living in totally inhumane situations...and yes! In North America! It diverts attention away from serious social issues, and let's be frank...most mainstream lgbt folk think the same as most of the rest of society when it comes to the disadvantaged: "homeless people are just lazy," "sex workers don't deserve rights," "more border security to keep 'illegal aliens' out," "bdsmers just make us look like crazy perverts at Pride," "racism doesn't exist, people are just lazy" etc. etc. That is the very real reason why the lgbt rights movement has become largely single-issue...because the average person just doesn't give a shit about people who didn't have the same social privileges as they did.

To me, trying to make even small changes mean helping not for profit organisations that make differences in the lives of disadvantaged queer folks. Volunteering. Marches that allow people to voice all the ways in which queer rights are being violated. And that means people are gonna have a lot to say about misogyny, aboriginal rights, poverty, anti-sex worker and anti-immigrant sentiments and many more. That is activism...not kiss-ins and single-issue reactionaries.

Also, I don't get why people are making this into an issue of Chick-fil-a being "unAmerican" or "unChristian." I mean, really, people? Neither of these things are of any consequence. This whole "unAmerican" thing seems to be an insult that Americans throw at each other when they don't agree with one another about something. In that case, its failing to see the damage that patriotism and this whole notion of "Americanness" does. I don't think I've seen many Germans outside of the far right fringe cry out that something is "unGerman" (and usually that hails back to Nazism and the idea of "the folk," and Germans are pretty conscious about using that kind of language) or a Swede about a policy being "UnSwedish." Americans seem to have this obsession with patriotism that actually causes problems and second class citizens. Its this whole competition of "Americanness" that often allows fundamentalists to rave against the queer community (and many other communities for that matter...historically and in the present), because their idea of "Americanness" is traditional family values. Then the queer community screams back that such and such a thing is "unAmerican" because it violates "such and such amendment" (which apparently is serious business in the good ol' US of A). Such arguments are pointless. It has nothing to do with a who's "more American" than whomever pissing contest. It has to do with allowing people to have their basic human rights and allowing every citizen of a nation to have the same rights. That is something that people fight for in most nations, and is generally the hallmark of most progressive nations.

As for the christian part...are we really going to sit here and argue over what is essentially mythology? Its so silly. We have our share of fundies here in Canada as well, with the REAL Women of Canada and whatnot...people just accept that they're nutjobs and go on to more important things. We don't argue with them as to whether or not they're "good christians." I really don't give a shit if a fundie is practicing "good christianity" (whatever the hell that is) or not by being a bigot. I'm more concerned with the fact that they're a bigot who thinks that their personal opinions about another group of people makes them think that they have the "freedom" to promote hatred. Luckily, they don't have that right legally, and for that I'm at least partially grateful. For example, recently here a gay couple was denied an apartment because of the landlord's "personal beliefs." The court barely took a second to side with the couple. You don't get an arena to affect others' lives just because you decide to hate on them...that should never be a right.

And yeah, I agree with what some others have written here...that essentially, freedom of speech does not mean having the right to spout hatred in public and to stomp on others' rights to a safe environment. Its always christians who seem to think they do have that right. I've never seen a group so disrespectful of others' safe spaces and rights to total equality.

[BullDog]

Hey the reason I call these haters out as not practicing Christianity is because they try to wrap their hate up into "religious freedom."

I agree with Martina that just calling it out won't stop them, but I am not going to defend people the right to practice religion when they aren't practicing what they supposedly preach.

People can hold whatever religious, spiritual, whatever beliefs they want, but when it infringes on others rights and promotes hatred and violence it doesn't have any place in public discourse. I'm not going to defend that as religious freedom or freedom of speech.

[EnderD_503]

While I agree that "religious freedom" doesn't include promoting hatred against others, I still don't see the point of discussing with them about whether or not they're being "good christians." The Bible is so full of contradictions its extremely easy to make an argument one way or another...as it should be, considering it was a text written by numerous men over 1500 years ago, that's taken influence from numerous other religions. There are plenty of biblical passages that promote hatred...but, to me, that's not the issue. I'm not going to condemn all christians because of it, but at the same time, I think its just pointless to argue with them.

Instead, its better to talk about human rights in the modern age and freedom from discrimination under the law, regardless of sexual orientation, race/ethnicity/skin colour, nationality, sex, religion, gender identity, ability etc. That removes religion from the arena entirely and they don't have a leg to stand on. Eventually, the more secular American society becomes, they become more obsolete...and especially if people simply refuse to argue with them over issues of religion that don't affect people who don't follow that religion.

[BullDog]

Well if I ever get into a face to face conversation with one of these haters I have just one question for them: what would Jesus do? Their hypocrisy is obvious whether you take the teachings of Christ into account or not.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Then the queer community screams back that such and such a thing is "unAmerican" because it violates "such and such amendment" (which apparently is serious business in the good ol' US of A).

It sure as fuck is serious business in the 'good ole USA.' It's something -- the constitution -- that I'd actually fight for. It's other Americans, sadly, who are the most serious threat to it. I have a problem with the two party system, but the rights guaranteed by our constitution, no. I am grateful and proud of the constitution. I love it. As in partriotic LOVE.

I am not a believer in American exceptionalism, and I see the damage it causes. But we did something special with that constitution and that revolution. And it HAS been formative. It has made us a people who are different for more reasons than our language or how we prepare our food.

I love what Sandra Day O'Connor is doing with her retirement. She is working on improving civics education. What we have in the U.S. is a form of government set up to fight people like the religious right. It was specifically DESIGNED to protect us from extremists. It amazingly also was designed to protect most unpopular minorities, and we have amended it to broaden those categoris. And -- most importantly -- it allows for change. Change without destruction. It is a great document, the first of its kind. And I CARE about. I also believe that growing up in a culture that has taught and applied that document, however partially, is part of what makes me who I am. It does not make me better than anyone else. But it is part of who I AM. As a person.

Yes, calling something un-American has usually come from the right. My point was to turn that around on them. Just a rhetorical strategy. Nothing I care about. But I do care about my identity as an American, and I believe it means something. And not what those fucking right wing zealots say it does. I will take them on about that because it means something to ME, as an American.

[Miss Scarlett]

Awesome post Martina...i love our Constitution too...it's a living, breathing document and has stood in place for over 200 years withstanding crises such as the Civil War and Watergate...it is what protects us from governmental oppression here in the US...i cannot and do not want to imagine what life in this Country of ours would be like without it...

Also i am a big fan of Sandra Day O'Connor and love that she is trying to bring civics education back...it never should have left our schools in the first place...

[aishah]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

While I agree that "religious freedom" doesn't include promoting hatred against others, I still don't see the point of discussing with them about whether or not they're being "good christians." The Bible is so full of contradictions its extremely easy to make an argument one way or another...as it should be, considering it was a text written by numerous men over 1500 years ago, that's taken influence from numerous other religions. There are plenty of biblical passages that promote hatred...but, to me, that's not the issue. I'm not going to condemn all christians because of it, but at the same time, I think its just pointless to argue with them.

i'm part of a church community (that is progressive) and from within the christian community i see a huge movement towards doing this (confronting hateful christians by pointing out the problems with their theology) only because of the need that some folks see to actually practice what jesus preached. and within the ecumenical movement, it can be a starting point of dialogue - okay, we may not agree on everything politically but we agree that jesus preached this one thing, so let's start the conversation from there.

from without the christian community, it usually ends up being a self-congratulatory way of pointing out other people's hypocrisy. i mean, i see why people do it, and i do think it's important to stand up against bigotry. but i don't understand the constructive value of it, because it's rarely phrased in a way that will actually make people stop and think or consider changing their minds. it's also usually done with a heaping side of self-righteousness...which...you know...i've been guilty of that myself. but i don't necessarily think that self-righteously judging someone, even someone who is saying terrible things, will really change anything.

[Corkey]

I have a saying I'm rather fond of and anyone is free to grab it.

"Your rights end at the beginning of my nose".

[DMW]

So many good comments here. The separation of church and state is a very critical part of our constitution. People should be granted equality, civil liberties, human rights and justice...regardless of all religion's ideals. Period.


Something i am grateful for, because i now know that this company is my enemy, i will act accordingly. It is a gift that they have come out of the closet...Now, anyone and everyone, that knows me...will never spend another dollar there.

And that probably goes for everyone here...hooooorrraaaaahhh

And now, i would like for the others to come out of the closet too..... I love it when corporations show their true colors. Cause then, i can show mine.




Wow Corkey, i just got done with this and then saw your post....exactly! Right on target!
The nose Knows...

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'll take the chance and be honest that it's hard to have these conversations with Christians/Zealots when half the stuff they ate throwing in my direction is based on a book of lies. You can't have a constructive rational conversation with someone who keeps on saying or mentioning Sodom & Gomorrah. It's a lost cause there is zero critical thinking going on and it's totally like arguing with a toddler mid hissy fit.


I don't believe believe ALL Christians behave in this manner. I'm speaking of all the hoards that showed up for a free hate filled sammich. It is one of the most vile things I have seen in my adult life, people had their children in there as they sang God Bless America. These adults are having hate filled conversations regarding LGBTQI people speaking about us as if we're pariah's, as if we we're infesting their "space". It's scary what kind of hate is brewing out there all in the name of "God".


It's hard getting past all the biblical muck just so that the OBVIOUS (which is our rights as citizens) can be discussed.

[BullDog]

I am not sure who is being self-righteous but to me there is a world of difference between people with religious/spiritual beliefs who act from a place of love and conviction and those who use their "faith" as a cover for hate. The differences can be spotted a mile away and should be duly noted.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DMW

So many good comments here. The separation of church and state is a very critical part of our constitution. People should be granted equality, civil liberties, human rights and justice...regardless of all religion's ideals. Period.

Yes I agree. If we didn't have such a messy line between the two things would be much better.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am not sure who is being self-righteous but to me there is a world of difference between people with religious/spiritual beliefs who act from a place of love and conviction and those who use their "faith" as a cover for hate. The differences can be spotted a mile away and should be duly noted.

i agree wholeheartedly.

i think for me i'm critical of my own judgment of other people as hypocritical when it's coming from a place of self-righteousness, because i do that (out of justifiable anger and frustration), but usually when i do that it doesn't leave the potential for changing anything. it just makes me feel like a better person. and for me at least that makes me wonder if i'm any better with my self-righteous judging than they are with theirs. just because i'm right and i have good intentions doesn't necessarily mean that it's a loving act for me to be judgmental and to be up on a high horse about it.

so i'm trying to learn to engage - when i do choose to engage - in ways that are more constructive and have the possibility of changing people's minds - while still maintaining my principles. one way of doing this is to emphasize rights and protections guaranteed under the law, although this doesn't usually make any impact on folks who are spewing biblical hate. another way that has worked somewhat for me is to emphasize how much their ideas and hatred are actually endangering and killing human beings. this sometimes has an impact on the more moderate folks. another way that i'm exploring is to open up ecumenical dialogue and actually confront the theological issues with faith leaders in moderate and conservative christian communities. the jury's still out on that.

the difficulty i have is that i view things in a pretty black and white fashion. i tend to take the james cone view of god and oppression - god is on the side of the oppressed, period, end of story, and any argument with that, whether overt or implied, is justifying and upholding oppression. so my patience with dialogue only goes so far. and i cave to anger and frustration a lot because, let's face it, the barrage of hateful bullshit is neverending.

[Mrs Arcstriker]

The more that I hear about this debate, the more that I think we have bigger fish (or chickens) to fry...

IMHO, I am a lesbian, and legally married in the GREAT STATE OF CONNECTICUT...and that said, I do not think that a kiss-in will help our cause a fig.

To me, this whole Chick-fil-a thing is nothing more than a herring in the path and I for one will not jump on the bandwagon...any moresoe than I did when it was J C Penney under fire by the Million Moms after Ellen Degeneres was appointed the spokeswoman.

Spend your money there or don't...You all have to choose with your own conscience...A kiss-in though will prove nothing more to the right than what they already know to be true...They think that the sum-total of homosexuality is about sex, and to thrust it into their faces in the forum of a kiss-in might only to foster that point...

[BullDog]

I have mixed emotions because in some ways I feel fil-a-hate is getting way too much air time and in other ways I feel we need the awareness to spread about where their money is going.

I watched a video a while ago posted on the Advocate website. They were filming at a fil-a-hate in Hollywood, just blocks from where I once worked. Pat Boone even showed up. The people they interviewed were all ignorant and hateful but they certainly didn't see themselves that way. It was pretty grim.

They have a right to spend their dollars where they want to, just like we do. The difference is they are supporting a company that funds anti-equality causes and hate groups. It's quite clear there is plenty of homophobia and anti-gay rhetoric springing up over this and not about just someone's personal beliefs about marriage.

[weatherboi]

There are already reports of other companies taking their stand and supporting chik fil a. i would hate to see a trend with big money companies taking "stands" against LGBT people but it is something that i could see happening after what happened Thursday. It is alarming at best!