Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[julieisafemme]

I know for myself a lot of the frustration and confusion comes when trying to define my partner's gender within the context of male and female. Sometimes it is more defining what he is not. He is not a woman. Never was and never felt like one. He is a transmasculine butch. That is his gender. Not female. Not male. He has legally transitioned and yet still retains butch as his gender. He does not use the term FtM to define himself.

If feels uncomfortable to me when we discuss how others choose to change their bodies. The problem I have seen with the Harry Benjamin guidelines is that they are too rigid in defining gender and the wide range that encompasses.

[BullDog]

Well, I have had the same difficulty as HB with understanding the term male identified butch, whereas TG Butch has always made sense to me. I am not sure they mean the exact same thing and it will vary from individual to individual. I have always associated male= biological sex and man/woman/butch/femme etc = gender, so male being used in what seems to me to be gender terms does confuse me.

I just got into the habit that if someone says they are male then I consider them male. It doesn't have to do with biology, surgery, transitioning, hormones, etc. It has to do with who they say they are. Not everyone has the same options or makes the same decisions based on how to align their physical body and legal status with their gender, biological sex or physical body attributes. I think many who consider themselves to be male id'd butches- it is more about their mind than actual physical body, or where the two meet. Ender did talk about that.

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not.

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

Bully I don't think Dapper is saying that. Third gender is as much an identity on the spectrum as the rest of the identifications folks use to describe who they are to an audience that understands the concepts of gender.
Make since?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

[imperfect_cupcake]

The only problem with the term (which I talked about in another thread on another site), is that it has the word gender in it when really in definition #2 we are talking about a person's sex. So, really we need another term (and no, genderqueer is not the same thing to me...and again, there is that pesky gender word again when really referring to a person's sex!)

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

Yes, I have heard about your Club Wotever. If I ever make it to London I am SO going there! Sounds fantastic! (As does the rest of your queer culture).

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

agreed that it is easier for me to grasp if they are separated - in some people it *is* both though. I'm just thinking of some mates.

and yes the umbrella term of the genderqueer scene here in London is imprecise - here it refers to physical transformations in conjunction with genderblending or gender individuality or gender fluidity, usually with a strong dyke presence. However, I do know what a comfortable mixed bag (FtM, MtF, butch, boi, genderfuck, transexual to ones own thing, intersex, femme, bird, bear, just me's, dolly mixtures, ad infinitum) the club will be if it's advertised as such.

Club Wotever uses "wotever" for a reason. It's not so imprecise, it's just blurry and apathetic lol.


I don't see it getting defined here in London more though. Nobody really uses qualifiers even with butch or femme. I don't personally know anyone who publicly calls themselves "stone butch" - privately maybe, in a relationship. Genderqueer is more the name of the community, I think... *ponder* Ish.

Frankly, it sounds much less stuck in old patriarchal gender distinctions and uptight sexual mores (unfortunately, major US fundamentasl of society) to me! It has been years since I was in the UK, but, when you and HB and others talk about it in terms of this, I long for anbother visit! I was het when there last.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs who don't consider themselves to be third gender. Not sure if all male id'd butches do.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs and perhaps also male id'd butches who don't consider themselves to be third gender or transgender.

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

[Soon]

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.

Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

Oh Bully there are many more, that you don't know of them is something I think you will have to investigate on your own. Inherently... in the context of this thread I don't find issue with. Remember you are talking to and about those with whom you don't identify. Our since of self will be much different that yours. Just as mine is different than an Lesbian ID'd Female Butch. I think you and I have had this discussion before, yes? Just because the english dictionary doesn't have the words, doesn't mean there aren't other words in another language, some not spoken that have more definition than what we in the US use.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Oh Bully there are many more, that you don't know of them is something I think you will have to investigate on your own. Inherently... in the context of this thread I don't find issue with. Remember you are talking to and about those with whom you don't identify. Our since of self will be much different that yours. Just as mine is different than an Lesbian ID'd Female Butch. I think you and I have had this discussion before, yes? Just because the english dictionary doesn't have the words, doesn't mean there aren't other words in another language, some not spoken that have more definition than what we in the US use.

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not.

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

I agree with what you've said and that there is probably more to biological sex. But I just wanted to make a note on the last bit. There is also a scientific basis for "brain sex" or neurological sex. In the last decade or so it's been found that those born in biologically female bodies who consider themselves male tend to have somatostatin neuron numbers in the brain in the male range (men have double the number that women have), while biologically born males who consider themselves female have numbers in the female range. So there does seem to be a scientific basis in the feeling of maleness or femaleness despite biological sex or being neither one. I think it would be interesting to see further studies, since, as we've all discussed here, the spectrum of identification goes beyond male and female and there are likely answers regarding how we identify in all of our brains.

I think you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to the popularly viewed importance of reproductive organs.

@HowSoonIsNow, I don't think that it is necessarily all that recently that the term butch has expanded or that butch has always necessarily meant masculine lesbian. Just thinking of Stone Butch Blues (as far as I remember, Jess talked about not feeling like a lesbian, not feeling female or male but something else. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, my memory's foggy) and even some of what's been said by prominent butch or tg authors, people around these sites, at conferences like Butch Voices (from what I've had the chance to see of the conference on youtube...would love to go one day) as well who talked about the butch/femme scene in the 50's, 60's, 70's as well as how both older and younger butches see their identity. I can't say out of personal experience, I wasn't there, but that's what I've gathered from hearing and reading what others who were have had to say. Maybe those who did not identify as lesbian were not the majority of the butch population in the past, but from what I gather still present. Just as male id'd butches today are pretty much a minority among those who do identify as butch, but still present.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

Bully I have no issue with you, I have issue with you coming on a male ID'd thread and insisting we look at butch in only your way. You are trying to put words in folks mouths that aren't there. Yes, Bully there are more identities than you know of, not all are anything and no one here has said as much. Breathe. There are no IMPERATIVES when understanding humanity.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Bully I have no issue with you, I have issue with you coming on a male ID'd thread and insisting we look at butch in only your way. You are trying to put words in folks mouths that aren't there. Yes, Bully there are more identities than you know of, not all are anything and no one here has said as much. Breathe. There are no IMPERATIVES when understanding humanity.

No Corkey, I am not insisting people look at butch in my way. Not all butches are third gender and there are more than three genders. For those who identify with the term they are free to do so.