Trans News/ Issues

[DapperButch]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1125662.html

[Ebon]

Neil Patrick Harris Apologizes for 'Live!' Tranny-Wreck

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...96637320111202

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Ebon

Neil Patrick Harris Apologizes for 'Live!' Tranny-Wreck

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...96637320111202

Don't really care if he apologised or not, personally. If he and GLAAD think the only problem with what he said was his use of the word "tranny" then we've got a problem. The entire joke itself, even if he hadn't used the slur, would have been just as offensive without it.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Don't really care if he apologised or not, personally. If he and GLAAD think the only problem with what he said was his use of the word "tranny" then we've got a problem. The entire joke itself, even if he hadn't used the slur, would have been just as offensive without it.

Excellent point!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Don't really care if he apologised or not, personally. If he and GLAAD think the only problem with what he said was his use of the word "tranny" then we've got a problem. The entire joke itself, even if he hadn't used the slur, would have been just as offensive without it.

I couldn't quite figure out what it was about the whole thing that bothered me. I knew it wasn't his use of the word "tranny". While I comprehend the offensiveness of the term and respect the hell out of the fact that it *is* offensive to so many, I'm not bothered by it personally. So I knew it wasn't that...

But your post cleared it up for me somehow.

If a guy spoke in an uncommonly (uncommon for that individual) soft manner......just came out that way......and said, "I've never sounded more like a fag/gay man/whatever in my life," it would be offensive primarily because of a very tired, negative stereotype.

Or if a woman surprised herself by moving something heavy out of the way and said, "I've never felt more like a dyke/lesbian/whatever in my life," it would also be offensive.......again.......tired, negative stereotype.

So, for me, it was the notion that there is a "way" a transsexual/tranny/whatever sounds. ...that one can distort his/her voice and "sound like a tranny" is the disturbing and offensive part of it......again, for me.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Don't really care if he apologised or not, personally. If he and GLAAD think the only problem with what he said was his use of the word "tranny" then we've got a problem. The entire joke itself, even if he hadn't used the slur, would have been just as offensive without it.

If he had of said transgendered, transsexual, crossdresser or whatever else that came to his mind to describe people like us people still would have gotten offended. He was referring to Buffalo Bill not transgendered people as a whole. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would go around trying to kill a transgendered person out of hate. I really don't think he realized that he was offending people or what he was saying. It's like people are sitting back and waiting for somebody to say something offensive so they can be offended. Where does it fucking end?

I'm still pissed off about the people chopping up that transgendered woman in Detroit. Some little gay boy saying the word tranny doesn't bother me at all.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Ebon

If he had of said transgendered, transsexual, crossdresser or whatever else that came to his mind to describe people like us people still would have gotten offended. He was referring to Buffalo Bill not transgendered people as a whole. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would go around trying to kill a transgendered person out of hate. I really don't think he realized that he was offending people or what he was saying. It's like people are sitting back and waiting for somebody to say something offensive so they can be offended. Where does it fucking end?

I'm still pissed off about the people chopping up that transgendered woman in Detroit. Some little gay boy saying the word tranny doesn't bother me at all.

So anything short of chopping us up into pieces isn't fucking transphobia now? Sorry, but that's complete bullshit.

I don't care who he was referring to. I know he was referring to Buffalo Bill. It stated that in the initial article. I don't care if he was referring to one trans person/a representation of a trans person or all of us, it's the same fucking thing and being gay does not give him a free pass to make "jokes" about trans people and their voices, nor throw around slurs. There are enough self-entitled white celebrity gay guys out there thinking it's perfectly fine to do it, to write an entire fucking book about.

"If he had of said transgendered, transsexual, crossdresser or whatever else that came to his mind to describe people like us people still would have gotten offended."

That's exactly what I was just said in the post you replied to. The entire statement suggests that there is something "weird" or "funny" about trans people's voices, whether that person is a movie representation (and the movie representation itself is transphobic for that matter) or a real person. Many trans people go through transition feeling self-conscious about their voices. The number of times I've heard people refer to the voices of transguys as "chipmunk voices" or make what they see as "funny imitations" of what they think transwomen sound like is huge. It's something that happens fairly frequently only to get a laugh.

Nobody is fucking sitting around waiting to be offended. The problem is that the societies we live in still think trans people are fair game for jokes. People need to know why those jokes are offensive. It's not just slurs, it's the entire sentiment behind that joke, and his apology suggests that he doesn't get that at all.

I'm sick of people defending celebrities who seem entirely unaware of the negative effects of their "funny jokes" and "opinions."

[EnderD_503]

I just wanted to come back to the thread and apologies that I came off as really pissed off in my last response. Lately the combination of things going on in my life right now just really have me on "attack mode" for a lot of things that I find completely unjust.

I did mean everything I said in that last post, but I think I also came off as a bit of an ass in some of the language I used and for that I'm sorry. Honestly, it's just really frustrating to have this kind of shit everywhere not only in your own life, but it seems more and more in the newspapers these days as well make it like a fairly strong connection to RL and the news. I know the world won't change in a day, but it sucks to have to fight the same battle over and over again.

[Toughy]

I don't get it either. Hell I don't get the problem with 'tranny' but then I live in the Bay Area and hear transfolks call themselves 'tranny' all the time.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T. Would folks be upset if a transman had made the same joke?

There are ways of saying the same thing in an offensive way or in a non-offensive way. I did not see this as offensive in the way he said it....but offense is in the eye of the beholder.

[atomiczombie]

Well, I don't think he meant anything by it, but it is less than sensitive to the trans people out there who do take offense to the word, and there are plenty of them. I personally don't like the word 'tranny' because it does get used by non-trans people in derogatory ways. If some trans people want to use it as a self-descriptor, that's fine and their right to do so. But I think it would be great if more people, especially in the LGBT community, were aware that it does have that very negative connotation for many transfolks.

[kannon]

I watched the video and it had zero effect on me. I didn't feel offended. IMO, Neil was just making a joke. Yeah, it was at the expense of trans but I know I've sounded pretty funny. It's not a bad thing. If I can't laugh at myself then I'm gonna spend a lot of time being pissed and self-conscious.

It's a pain in the ass when I can't get a loan because the dude on the phone doesn't believe my voice matches up with the rest of my credit info (I'm still listed as female). That really sucked. I have credit with discover. I tried to get a personal loan through them over the phone. I got a letter a few days after I applied saying they could not verify my id. WTF. I just laughed. Obviously, I didn't need the money.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by kannon

I watched the video and it had zero effect on me. I didn't feel offended. IMO, Neil was just making a joke. Yeah, it was at the expense of trans but I know I've sounded pretty funny. It's not a bad thing. If I can't laugh at myself then I'm gonna spend a lot of time being pissed and self-conscious.

Exactly, for me personally it's a waste of energy. There will always be someone that doesn't understand or that wants to hate for the sake of being hateful. If I sat around getting offended by every little thing someone said I would live a sad existence. There is a huge difference between someone being right out hateful and someone making a joke. Either way fuck em. I'm not going to let them bring me to their level.

[kannon]

Originally Posted by Ebon

Exactly, for me personally it's a waste of energy. There will always be someone that doesn't understand or that wants to hate for the sake of being hateful. If I sat around getting offended by every little thing someone said I would live a sad existence. There is a huge difference between someone being right out hateful and someone making a joke. Either way fuck em. I'm not going to let them bring me to their level.

I agree. I would have been offended if he had used some derogative descriptor like "I sound like a trannie freak. Now no one will ever take me seriously. "

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Ebon

Exactly, for me personally it's a waste of energy. There will always be someone that doesn't understand or that wants to hate for the sake of being hateful. If I sat around getting offended by every little thing someone said I would live a sad existence. There is a huge difference between someone being right out hateful and someone making a joke. Either way fuck em. I'm not going to let them bring me to their level.

well said and very true.

[Leigh]

I can see both sides here; I can see how it would be offensive but I can also see how some people won't be offended by it. I'm not at all going to defend Neil because even though he's a gay man and a hell of an actor, he still should have watched the words he used because yes some people will be offended and in this day and age we really have to watch our choice of words. If this was say 20 or more years ago no one would even bat an eyelash, but now a days its so easy to offend people so in reality its always best to watch what we say in general

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Matthew

I can see both sides here; I can see how it would be offensive but I can also see how some people won't be offended by it. I'm not at all going to defend Neil because even though he's a gay man and a hell of an actor, he still should have watched the words he used because yes some people will be offended and in this day and age we really have to watch our choice of words. If this was say 20 or more years ago no one would even bat an eyelash, but now a days its so easy to offend people so in reality its always best to watch what we say in general

I'm sorry, I'm just really surprised by comments like this and others about it being "so easy to offend people these days." It just sounds a lot like what right wingers say when anyone tries to stick up for the rights of marginalized people. Edit, I also want to mention that it has nothing to do with us being "more easily offended" than in the past. It's that today our rights have extended to a degree where we can even have a voice. In the past, trans people were not exactly thrilled by the treatment and "jokes" against our community. There are many transwomen especially who write about their experiences in the 60s and 70s. But back then, they didn't have the rights nor the voice to ever challenge it through any medium that would reach the mainstream. Nobody would have cared.

As far as the comments about it being "just a joke" and him "not meaning it," I also find that a little surprising to hear to say the least. Those kinds of defenses are also used to defend misogynist jokes. Often when men make sexist jokes against women they claim it to be "just a joke" and not to "mean anything by it." Same with those who claim its "just a joke" when they make homophobic jokes. Often joking about a group that is less privileged than you are emphasises that privilege.

I remember there was a topic awhile ago, maybe a year or more, about a comedy skit about lesbian "cougars." At the time I remember taking the stance that it was satiric. While I still think that it partially was satiric, I've now certainly changed my perspective as far as the misogyny and homophobia present in that "comedy." I'm seeing something similar here.

Transphobia, sexism, homophobia etc. in our society does not always take on a violent form, or a form where the perpetrator claims any direct ill will against the target group. Not everyone who is transphobic goes out and tries to physically harm trans people. I've seen many comments by cis people express disgust when they hear about the murder or assault of a transwoman, however, they still express that "even those these people are ill/deviants/lifestyle choice etc. etc. they don't deserve to be beaten." It's the same "hate the sin not the sinner" bullshit that has very damaging repercussions when it comes to how trans people are treated in every day life, outside of physical violence.

In our society transphobia, misogyny and homophobia are so ingrained in our ideals that people often don't even recognise it in themselves, and believe certain jokes and comments to be socially acceptable simply because they're the norm. I see jokes against trans people and other marginalised people as something serious, and especially when its performed by those who hold more social privilege.

I want to clarify again, as I have in the past in this thread and elsewhere, that I don't care if a trans person uses the word "tranny" as a personal identifier, just the way I don't care if a gay man identifies himself as a "fag." I do have a problem when cis people start calling trans people "trannies." It is an entirely different ball game. If a trans person assumed all trans people identified as "trannies" I would correct them. If a cis person made the same assumption I would correct them, but even more I would be weary that they even felt entitled enough to use that word to refer to trans people. Same with the word "fag" and other such terms.

As far as if I would be offended if a trans person had made the joke...yes I certainly would be. Being trans doesn't exempt you from being transphobic or having internalised transphobia, just the way being queer doesn't exempt you from being homophobic and having internalised homophobia. I've definitely witnessed a lot of internalised transphobia and self-hatred coming from trans people, and it's not something I support or see as conducive to establishing trans rights and respect in society. I'd also add that this observation is a big part of what motivated me to try to find trans communities that are more trans-positive, rather than always thinking others have the right to walk all over us and that we don't have the right to say anything about it.

[Toughy]

This is from my previous post and was not answered by folks who were offended. I really am trying to understand this and the reason I don't is in the question.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T.

and this idea of being really careful with words so as to not offend anyone is an impossible task.....and for some folks probably contributes to silencing out of fear of offending when there is no intention of offense....I frankly get tired of trying to find different ways to say something that is simple and straightforward and in the process garbling what I am trying to say......

and I still don't understand how the comment/joke was transphobic..........it's a joke about a voice change.....

[kannon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

As far as if I would be offended if a trans person had made the joke...yes I certainly would be. Being trans doesn't exempt you from being transphobic or having internalised transphobia, just the way being queer doesn't exempt you from being homophobic and having internalised homophobia. I've definitely witnessed a lot of internalised transphobia and self-hatred coming from trans people, and it's not something I support or see as conducive to establishing trans rights and respect in society. I'd also add that this observation is a big part of what motivated me to try to find trans communities that are more trans-positive, rather than always thinking others have the right to walk all over us and that we don't have the right to say anything about it.

You have every right to feel offended by someone's behavior. It's your feelings, man.

For me, it's all about picking my battles. In comparison to other stuff, this seems pretty small. My .02 cents.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Toughy

This is from my previous post and was not answered by folks who were offended. I really am trying to understand this and the reason I don't is in the question.

The voice reference most likely has to do with the changes in voice that occur with the use of T (and E). Is it offensive to make fun of a teenage boy when his voice cracks as it changes? It's the same cracking/change I hear when transmen start taking T.

and this idea of being really careful with words so as to not offend anyone is an impossible task.....and for some folks probably contributes to silencing out of fear of offending when there is no intention of offense....I frankly get tired of trying to find different ways to say something that is simple and straightforward and in the process garbling what I am trying to say......

and I still don't understand how the comment/joke was transphobic..........it's a joke about a voice change.....

First of all, I find the use of the word "silencing" here is exactly what happens when that term is thrown around when a person tries to explain why these jokes have negative consequences for the way trans people are perceived and treated in public. Why is it "silencing" to ask people to refrain from making jokes that make fun of trans people's voices? Is it silencing to call men out for making jokes about their wives and girlfriends by making "imitative" high-pitched voices that are meant to sound "naggy"/fit in with the typical misogynist stereotypes? Is it silencing to call out a person who imitates the stereotypical "gay" voice, as derogatory towards gay men?

And the topic of voices and making fun of them is quite interesting. I don't think I've often heard a comedian making fun of a white, straight cis man's voice. Supposedly imitating women's voices is "funny" to many men, so that they can commiserate with one another about all the "horrid" things their wives apparently say and do. Imitating the stereotypical "gay" voice is apparently quite "funny" as well to a mainstream audience. As is supposedly imitating the voices of trans people, and transwomen in particular. There have been enough skits on Saturday Night Live and other such "funny" shows displaying exactly those situations. Notice how it's always "funny" to make fun of those who have less privilege in society. No, perhaps not "always." There are always exceptions. But by and large, that's the way things are. I find that troubling. It assumes a "normal" way of being that sets up certain people as the standard, while others are "funny" or "weird" or worthy of a laugh.

I also fail to see how such a joke is productive, and why the right to tell an offensive joke trumps the right of the person to speak out against it. Lately I feel like I'm seeing the same pattern. Someone mentions something as transphobic and people claim like it's "silencing" for the trans person to even mention it. People making comments about how "everything is transphobic these days," sounds a lot like how certain people talk about how "everything is racist these days" or "everything is sexist these days," and seems to call for a throw back to some kind of Archie Bunker view of the world when "men were men, and women were women" and so on and so forth.

Has it crossed people's minds that we have traditional engrained social values that are inherently transphobic? That there is a heck of a lot in our society that is subconsciously cissexist? That some trans people call out transphobia often because it actually is present in many ways that are socially ingrained and normalised? In the same way that our society possesses underlying sexist perceptions and values that are not automatically deemed sexist because they are so common place?

Does this mean that trans people who find these kinds of jokes offensive should just shut up and let the people who make these jokes continue to think that it's ok to do so? That there are no negative repercussions?

As far as the "voice cracking," I fail to see how that has anything to do with the story at hand. The actor's voice did not sound as though it was "cracking," he'd just inhaled helium, which generally heightens and distorts the voice in what is popular perceived as a "cartoonish" way. It's generally something people do that they think is comical. To compare the comedic "helium voice" to "sounding like a tranny" then implies that there is also something "funny" about the voices of trans people. That there is a "trans voice" to begin with. As I mentioned before, it's not exactly unknown for people to joke about the voices of transmen (aka the whole "chipmunk voice" jokes) and transwomen. To try to normalise such jokes and suggesting that it is even comparable to "oh well, people make fun of teenaged boys' cracking voices" is denying the fact that trans people are frequently the brunt of jokes. Teenaged boys are not. There are "tranny jokes," not "teenaged boy jokes." Nobody inhales helium and compares themselves to a teenaged boy. Trans people are nowhere near on par with teenaged boys as far as social acceptance, normalisation and privilege.

[Toughy]

thanks Ender.........we will have to agree to disagree on the subject....