In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[lamuymuyfem]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Tapu, *Anya* posted the above textbook definition earlier which you already quoted, but here it is again.

I would say this holds true a majority of the time in the world at large not as much in butch femme circles.

There are quite a number of femme lesbians who are partnered with/date male id/trans men. They still call themselves lesbians but are not strictly "women loving women." Just one example, and they have their own reasons and personal connections for why they id as lesbian.

People id with lesbian in different ways. For some, it strictly speaks to sexual orientation, for some perhaps to gender, for others community- either they have related to lesbian communities in the past and/or do so now.

For me, it is about sexual orientation (I am a butch woman attracted to femme women) and community (I have friendships and ties to real world community). I don't really like of lesbian as gender for myself really. I think of my gender as butch, but I often feel I have to qualify it with woman, lesbian and stone butch to be understood.

I don't think it is a good idea to define lesbian based on body parts. First of all, not to reduce us to body parts and second of all because in this community people relate to their physical bodies and genitals in different ways. So what I have downstairs might be anatomically the same as someone else but they might relate to it entirely different, yet we could still both be lesbians, or not.

This planet is my big opportunity to explore my feelings about IDing as lesbian when I was dating an FtM…..so thanks to everybody who talks openly about that. No more shrinking planets, please….

[BullDog]

lamuymuyfem, good to hear. Whatever feels good to you and makes you feel comfortable in your skin. That is what is important. Welcome to BFP.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes that is what I was saying. Anyone who says they are a lesbian, is a lesbian. People have different reasons for iding that way.

Between this and your other post....you are saying:

cis women are lesbians if they so choose
MTF are lesbians if they so choose
FTM are lesbian if they so choose
ergo, cis heterosexual men are also lesbian if they so choose
my cat is lesbian if she so chooses.

I can call myself a ham sandwich, doesnt mean I am one.

And Snow thinks we are othering transfolks?

You have effectively rendered being a lesbian to meaning nothing. Its not bad enough that lesbians have been bashed in this thread, called responsible for all that ails the community, now you are trying to totally transform women who love other women into something else?

This has got to be the most disrespectful, insulting, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Between this and your other post....you are saying:

cis women are lesbians if they so choose
MTF are lesbians if they so choose
FTM are lesbian if they so choose
ergo, cis men are also lesbian if they so choose
my cat is lesbian if she so chooses.

I can call myself a ham sandwich, doesnt mean I am one.

And Snow thinks we are othering transfolks?

You have effectively rendered being a lesbian to meaning nothing. Its not bad enough that lesbians have been bashed in this thread, called responsible for all that ails the community, now you are trying to totally transform women who love other women into something else?

This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community.

Holy shit.

Guess what Kobi, if someone says they are a lesbian and wants to participate in lesbian events and community I am not going to slam the door in their face. I welcome them.

I seriously find your post to probably be the most bizarre thing I have ever seen in my 13 years online.

Just shaking my head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Between this and your other post....you are saying:

cis women are lesbians if they so choose
MTF are lesbians if they so choose
FTM are lesbian if they so choose
ergo, cis men are also lesbian if they so choose
my cat is lesbian if she so chooses.

I can call myself a ham sandwich, doesnt mean I am one.

And Snow thinks we are othering transfolks?

You have effectively rendered being a lesbian to meaning nothing. Its not bad enough that lesbians have been bashed in this thread, called responsible for all that ails the community, now you are trying to totally transform women who love other women into something else?

This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community.

I don't know who *we* is for you, and no, I don't just *think* it's happening ------IT IS happening. I am not sure how you aren't seeing that. it's been quoted and addressed.


As for disrespect, negation, lesbian phobic, homophic buncha bullshit, does that apply to you as well? Or are you placing that on just certain people?

Thank you ahead for clarifying..

[BullDog]

I am the most lesbian phobic person in the history of the universe. LOL never thought I would be called that. Seriously so fucked up all I can do is laugh.

In case anyone is confused I am a lesbian.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't know who *we* is for you, and no I don't just *think* it's happening IT IS happening. I am not sure how you aren't seeing that. it's been quoted and addressed.


As for disrespect, negation, lesbian phobic, homophic buncha bullshit, does that apply to you as well? Or are you placing that on just certain people?

Thank you ahead for clarifying..

I decline to be baited into more bullshit.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I decline to be baited into more bullshit.

Now see I don't believe anyone is baiting you, what I am reading is you want to pontificate and point fingers and police who gets to go where, and when you are asked why it's ok for you to do it, you deflect, get upset, flounce out and so on.

So no Kobi no one is baiting you, you come in here and call people homophobic, lesbian phobic. wait, let me go quote you so I am not making stuff up


You Said



Originally Posted by Kobi View Post



"This has got to be the most disrespectful, negating, misogynistic, lesbian phobic, homophobic bunch of bullshit I have ever heard in this community. "
--------------------------------------------------------

Does that include you? Because from where I sit, it should, because you, you Kobi have all those attributes that you just accused people in this thread of having.


So no I am not baiting I am just wondering if you include yourself in that, and if not, why? What makes Kobi *better*?

[Martina]

ID's and their meanings change over time. Yes, ID's must have some meaning, and in order to mean anything, they must exclude some possibilities -- Kobi's cat, straight cis men -- but they must not be cohesive and water-tight. I learned that from reading Judith Butler. There is no need for them to be cohesive and water-tight. We as a culture and sub-culture have a working understanding of what an ID means, an understanding which is being negotiated all the time. That's just the way it works. We don't all vote on some definition, write it somewhere, and then give out cards to those who qualify.

Currently, we are trying to change who gets included, for example transwomen. Also, culture workers and activists, as well as allies, are having a conversation with the dominant culture about what it means to be a lesbian. In general, we are trying to remove pejorative associations from the ID. We also struggle not to make the ID seem all white, all middle class, etc. An effort to codify an ID is usually just a way for people who are defending the status quo to exclude others who are challenging their power within a community -- meaning white, privileged, and cis lesbians.

[Medusa]

Cats and straight cismen are certainly not Lesbians but women are if they love and fuck other women or fuck Queerly.

Here is where it gets sticky for me. When we start to say that "MTFs can be a Lesbian" in the same sentence as cats being a Lesbian, the separatist, transphobic slip of misandry *and* misogyny shows.

When we start to police who is a woman, we negate not only other women but we negate our OWN ability to love the woman who we are within ourselves. Think about it, if we are determining who else is a woman by sex organs and chromosomes, a vast number of women who have had hysterectomies and such are now, apparently, no longer women.

Why is "Lesbian" important to fence off if Butch or Femme or Trans is not?

[TruTexan]

I'm one of the butches that is staying out of this thread. I don't like arguing and going back and forth with name calling and accusations and whatever else there is going on in here yada yada yada.

I tend not to read things the way others do, I just read it and move on to the next post.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by TruTexan

I'm one of the butches that is staying out of this thread. I don't like arguing and going back and forth with name calling and accusations and whatever else there is going on in here yada yada yada.

I tend not to read things the way others do, I just read it and move on to the next post.

But you didn't, you posted in it, so that kinda negates your statement no?

BTW there is no name calling going on, would you mind showing us a post where that happened?

[fatallyblonde]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have another question about this fucking shit, what happens to the Trans Women who can't afford bottom surgery and are in this very community, are the not lesbians? Cause I believe they are 100% my lesbian, Femme comrades. STOP ERASING THEM

^^^^^^^ THIS.

There is so much shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin. But it sure has got my eyebrows raised very high in disbelief. But I can't be fucked arguing ("loving" all the misogyny directed at us "bitchy oppressive femmes" though! And women id butches - but the poor trans men and genderqueers NEVER judge, poor victims of mean wimminz bitchiness boo hoo hoo - SPARE ME). What Snow says above is the most important, crucial, critical factor for me. TRANS WOMEN BELONG IN OUR COMMUNITY, THEY BELONG IN WOMEN'S SPACES AND IF LESBIAN ID IN LESBIAN SPACE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR JUNK LOOKS LIKE.
This equating of womanhood and lesbianism with vagina HAS TO STOP.

I told myself I wasn't going to participate here at all - the amount of misogyny going on is staggering - but I will always come out to bat for trans women. If my tone is contentious, well. I am really, really angry right now. But I try as much as I can not to internet brawl these days. Thats all I have to say. Any community that excludes trans women is a fucked, broken community.

(and? it is REALLY dehumanising to refer to trans women as "MTFs" for goddsakes. Is it so hard to type out trans women??)

[Nat]

I used to have lots of internet arguments. Lately I just tend to state my piece and move on. Just having the record of different experience seems to be the real meat to the threads on this and other forums. We really don't all have to agree. I did post this in the butch zone because it was a question for butches. I'm curious regarding the plethora of potential butch responses and would like to see the contention over other subjects move elsewhere as I suspect it's silencing to a possibly important dialog that could really benefit us all to read.

[Candelion]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

But you didn't, you posted in it, so that kinda negates your statement no?

BTW there is no name calling going on, would you mind showing us a post where that happened?

I may be wrong but I don't think I am. But didn't someone call Tapu a crackpot?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

I used to have lots of internet arguments. Lately I just tend to state my piece and move on. Just having the record of different experience seems to be the real meat to the threads on this and other forums. We really don't all have to agree. I did post this in the butch zone because it was a question for butches. I'm curious regarding the plethora of potential butch responses and would like to see the contention over other subjects move elsewhere as I suspect it's silencing to a possibly important dialog that could really benefit us all to read.

I really feel that the conversation should be allowed to flow organically, it will eventually either be resolved, people will talk, evolve, but it's organic and no one is being to overly gross,

It's been painful yet great to see people's brain juices flow, and it's different people sharing their stuff not just 3 or 4.

Not that you care what I think, it's your thread, but I really wanted you to know that it's important what is happening.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Medusa

When we start to police who is a woman, we negate not only other women but we negate our OWN ability to love the woman who we are within ourselves. Think about it, if we are determining who else is a woman by sex organs and chromosomes, a vast number of women who have had hysterectomies and such are now, apparently, no longer women.

Butler calls these "intense disavowals" and says they are cruelties that we visit on ourselves. They repudiate the other in order to create a precise definition. But there is rarely a clean line between ourselves and others, as you note.

An example: When femmes defined ourselves in opposition to straight women, those of us who were once straight women were disavowing ourselves and our pasts. Some people think of their straight pasts as a time when they just did not know themselves as queer. But not all femmes do. Some of us WERE straight at some point. Some live as straight women now, and still ID as femme.

You have to leave the edges blurred or you will exclude people you may not want to. You will also repudiate allies and even parts of yourself. And you waste your time policing boundaries, which is really just code for a struggle for dominance within a group.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Candelion

I may be wrong but I don't think I am. But didn't someone call Tapu a crackpot?

Yes. I did.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by fatallyblonde

^^^^^^^ THIS.

There is so much shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin. But it sure has got my eyebrows raised very high in disbelief. But I can't be fucked arguing ("loving" all the misogyny directed at us "bitchy oppressive femmes" though! And women id butches - but the poor trans men and genderqueers NEVER judge, poor victims of mean wimminz bitchiness boo hoo hoo - SPARE ME). What Snow says above is the most important, crucial, critical factor for me. TRANS WOMEN BELONG IN OUR COMMUNITY, THEY BELONG IN WOMEN'S SPACES AND IF LESBIAN ID IN LESBIAN SPACE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR JUNK LOOKS LIKE.
This equating of womanhood and lesbianism with vagina HAS TO STOP.

I told myself I wasn't going to participate here at all - the amount of misogyny going on is staggering - but I will always come out to bat for trans women. If my tone is contentious, well. I am really, really angry right now. But I try as much as I can not to internet brawl these days. Thats all I have to say. Any community that excludes trans women is a fucked, broken community.

(and? it is REALLY dehumanising to refer to trans women as "MTFs" for goddsakes. Is it so hard to type out trans women??)

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

[BullDog]

When someone identifies as a lesbian it is not "anything goes." If it resonates and they want to participate then they should be welcomed. If it really isn't genuinely a part of who they are it is going to fade away, but really why should I care as long as they respectful and get along? And people figure things out as they go along, that's great too. I am not threatened by others who might be different than me being lesbian. Why should I be?

When I was in my early 20s living in Santa Cruz, CA there was a male named Michael who id'd as lesbian. He was always at lesbian dances and events. He wasn't some voyeuristic straight man leering. He was quiet and unassuming. Everyone would just be oh yeah there's Michael the lesbian. I really didn't know him, just would see him at events. I have no idea what his true feelings were, but he either id'd as lesbian or liked to hang out with us and didn't cause any problems. So who cares. It didn't make any of us into a ham sandwich or a cat or not lesbians.