What attracts you to Ftms ...... - Page 3

dark_crystal · 07-13-2010, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jet

No, I guess not.

you guess i'm not ineligible? (and i see how my asking THAT is a testament to how convoluted the original question was...i seem to be very good at those)

julieisafemme · 07-13-2010, 04:07 PM

Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.

paposeco · 07-13-2010, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

I get what your saying, it took a couple of readings, but I get it.

Not here to judge you one way or the other. You have the right to like/love/desire whomever and however. Cool.
I know who I am, and don't need nor require anothere's opinion or perception of who I am or am not. People are always sooo preocupied about shovin' other people in little boxes, as if that would make the world or their lives a more logical place. Love and let Love be what Love is. (this label thing is wayyyy over rated)

Billy · 07-13-2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

Wow ..lol I think ya got Me on this one ....And you may put Me under any umbrella you like , cause I am known to wear a boa every now and then .But why female

GoofyLuvr · 07-15-2010, 11:25 PM

I don't get it. Why can't it just be accepted that some of us are only attracted to ftm/transguys? Lesbians have argued for years that their feelings are not a decision that they make, it just is. Why is it so hard to accept that there are those of us who "just are" attracted to transguys. Maybe transguys have a certain pheromone that is different, who the hell knows. I think the fact that this is so dissected all the time is a really sad statement, though, of how judgemental people can still be, even when they think they aren't. Live and let live. Love and let love. Who cares who is attracted to whom, for God's sake, as long as everyone is happy with where they are. I really hope we can get back to the postive thread this started out to be, what attracts us to FTM's, cos there sure is a lot of attraction for me!

Gemme · 07-16-2010, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

shoes. it's the shoes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

i like nice hands too.
a good manicure.
or rough hard working calloused hands.
of course, i prefer them still attached and not in a jar.
i'm picky like that.

oh. and concert t shirts.
i cannot date anyone that doesn't have some amazing concert t's.

And they must part their hair on the left. But only on Bastille Day.

gezibel · 08-12-2012, 06:20 AM

I once dated a mtfperson beforeshe had any surgeries. I treated her the same as any other person I ever dated. She decided to tell me on our 1st date. She was uncomfortable about sex & I totally respected her decision. Honestly she was one of the best people I ever dated. She was beautiful, funny, sexy, & more open to discussion than alot of people who are comfortable with their bodies... :-)

Kent · 10-23-2012, 03:43 PM

Just a little bump...

Girl_On_Fire · 10-23-2012, 04:38 PM

I can't really explain the attraction in words. It's an energy thing. There's a certain energy trans guys have that I'm drawn to like a magnet. And sometimes I don't even know right away or they don't. I have two exes who have both transitioned but identified as butch women when I dated them. *shrugs and laughs* Go fig!

Leigh · 10-23-2012, 04:51 PM

I also had two ex's who started as butch when we began dating and I was with them when they began transitioning. There is just something about their energy that just gets to me; I cant describe it but its the attitude, the swagger, the way they carry themselves and are proud of who they are - I'm very attracted to FTM's

GraffitiBoi · 10-24-2012, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leigh

I also had two ex's who started as butch when we began dating and I was with them when they began transitioning. There is just something about their energy that just gets to me; I cant describe it but its the attitude, the swagger, the way they carry themselves and are proud of who they are - I'm very attracted to FTM's

I can only speak for myself... but the change in my energy when I began transition was because I finally felt comfortable... I felt like I was finally me... I found my confidence.

Sadly, I let go of my confidence and my identity due to something we are not allowed to talk about in the forums... But regardless of the reason, I have found myself again and have my confidence and energy back.

Darbonaire · 10-24-2012, 03:22 PM

I'm very attracted to FTM's

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Wish you lived closer...<smile>....

Heavenleahangel · 10-23-2012, 05:15 PM

Ok, my turn. I have ALWAYS known I was seriously attracted to the "butchiest", hardest partners/dates I could find and later came to know and call them ftms. I absolutely adore/ enjoy/want an ftm that is comfortable in their own skin and identity to partner with.
Don't get me wrong. I have helped 2 people in different stages of transitioning and absolutely would help someone else in their incredible journey to find themselves and be happy. While I never really thought of myself as a "lesbian" per se, I have come to accept that some ignorant people will label me this no matter what.
The reason I am attracted and want to partner with an ftm is complex in itself. I am attracted to the confidence, maturity, swaggar, energy. I absolutely love kissing my partner in public and when some ignorant ass gawks or looks wondering "could it be?" "Is that a girl and a guy" type crap, I just smile and know in my heart it doesn't matter what the people think. I am happy with who I am and hy is happy with me!
I love the energy and time put into getting ready to go out and I can not stress enough how much I love the bowchickawowwow dance! The time taken. The respect of boundaries. Knowing in my heart and mind that I "get it" and understand that sometimes the mind doesn't always match the body. The exact same things that make it "taboo" in others' eyes are a turn on for me! I crave it! Want it! Need it! Not just anyone has this. Only those who are secure and honest enough to live their own life for their own happiness. That makes me smile...

FemmeBibliophile · 10-23-2012, 06:30 PM

I, like others, agree that it's an energy thing.

But I also have to say that I have been treated the absolute best out of any relationships by the FtMs that I have dated.

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

At the end of the day, it's just who I am attracted to.

GraffitiBoi · 10-24-2012, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FemmeBibliophile

I, like others, agree that it's an energy thing.

But I also have to say that I have been treated the absolute best out of any relationships by the FtMs that I have dated.

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

At the end of the day, it's just who I am attracted to.

I heart the June Cleaver lifestyle and it just FEELS right to hold doors open, etc for a femme... Don't get me wrong... I'm not 'macho' and I do appreciate when a femme does things in return... But there's comfort for me in the 'old-fashioned' lifestyle or the old-school butch-femme dynamic.

Darbonaire · 10-24-2012, 03:28 PM

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

Duchess · 10-24-2012, 07:21 PM

All I can say is Yummy!!!

*Anya* · 10-24-2012, 09:18 PM

Oh, the good old 1950's! How about this article which is typical of women's magazines of the time?

Sounds super doesn't it?

Signed,

Anya
(The anti-June Cleaver)

Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955:

*Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.

*Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary men.

*Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

*Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.

*Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

*Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

*Be happy to see him.

*Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

*Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

*Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you.
Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.

*Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.

*Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.

*Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom.

*Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

*Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

^Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.

*A good wife always knows her place.

DMW · 10-24-2012, 10:21 PM

Actually, i prefer Donna Reed. Or Alice Kramden. I guess i am not that much of a gentleman. To each his own. Both of them had sexy ass brains, wit and sassiness. That special femme power that only a femme can have. Not to mention, the ability to do all of the stuff that i don't do or don't care to do. And all the other special things...those little girly/woman things...that make life better.

Gemme · 10-24-2012, 10:28 PM

Yanno, every few years this argument pops up. It's a case of what floats someone's boat, not making social commentaries.

The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now.

That's like you (general you) saying "I like to beat my honey's ass black and blue before church every Sunday" and getting shit on for saying it. It's their thing and their kink, if you will. Let's see someone tell someone else how to do their kink and see what kind of fiasco we have. No one is pushing it on anyone else. Those in favor of this lifestyle are expressing their love for it.

Someone please explain the problem with that to me. They aren't demanding women's rights be taken back to that time; they are saying 'this is how I am and what I like'. Period.

08-12-2012, 06:20 AM	#7
gezibel Junior Member How Do You Identify?: soft butch Preferred Pronoun?: Sir Relationship Status: very single Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: San Diego Posts: 1 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 19 Thanked 5 Times in 1 Post Rep Power: 0	Attractions r whatever u find works for u... I once dated a mtfperson beforeshe had any surgeries. I treated her the same as any other person I ever dated. She decided to tell me on our 1st date. She was uncomfortable about sex & I totally respected her decision. Honestly she was one of the best people I ever dated. She was beautiful, funny, sexy, & more open to discussion than alot of people who are comfortable with their bodies... :-)

10-23-2012, 03:43 PM	#8
Kent Member How Do You Identify?: Male Relationship Status: Single Tournaments Won: 2 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: TX Posts: 1,079 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,564 Thanked 2,058 Times in 720 Posts Rep Power: 19241325	What attracts you to FtMs? Just a little bump... __________________ Kent

10-23-2012, 04:38 PM	#9
Girl_On_Fire Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her Relationship Status: On Hiatus Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 690 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,020 Thanked 2,683 Times in 562 Posts Rep Power: 21474848	It's an energy thing I can't really explain the attraction in words. It's an energy thing. There's a certain energy trans guys have that I'm drawn to like a magnet. And sometimes I don't even know right away or they don't. I have two exes who have both transitioned but identified as butch women when I dated them. shrugs and laughs Go fig! __________________ "Quit trying to reason with unreasonable people. It's like trying to have a meaningful conversation with an end table." ~ Girl_On_Fire

10-23-2012, 04:51 PM	#10
Leigh Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, etc Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 7,767 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,029 Thanked 13,026 Times in 4,786 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I also had two ex's who started as butch when we began dating and I was with them when they began transitioning. There is just something about their energy that just gets to me; I cant describe it but its the attitude, the swagger, the way they carry themselves and are proud of who they are - I'm very attracted to FTM's __________________ "When you fall off the wagon ... clutch the sides of it until you get a better grip!"

10-24-2012, 03:22 PM	#12
Darbonaire Timed Out How Do You Identify?: MALE Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Working on myself, thank you Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 186 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 343 Thanked 552 Times in 145 Posts Rep Power: 0	Hmmmm I'm very attracted to FTM's [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE] Wish you lived closer...<smile>....

07-13-2010, 04:07 PM	#2
julieisafemme Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Woman Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Married to Greyson Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In the present Posts: 828 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,156 Thanked 3,445 Times in 660 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.

07-15-2010, 11:25 PM	#5
GoofyLuvr Member How Do You Identify?: queer femme :) Preferred Pronoun?: Well golly gee whiz, I bet she would do it! Relationship Status: completely, totally, head over heels in love :) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Maine!!! Posts: 122 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 139 Thanked 162 Times in 53 Posts Rep Power: 162	I don't get it. Why can't it just be accepted that some of us are only attracted to ftm/transguys? Lesbians have argued for years that their feelings are not a decision that they make, it just is. Why is it so hard to accept that there are those of us who "just are" attracted to transguys. Maybe transguys have a certain pheromone that is different, who the hell knows. I think the fact that this is so dissected all the time is a really sad statement, though, of how judgemental people can still be, even when they think they aren't. Live and let live. Love and let love. Who cares who is attracted to whom, for God's sake, as long as everyone is happy with where they are. I really hope we can get back to the postive thread this started out to be, what attracts us to FTM's, cos there sure is a lot of attraction for me!

10-23-2012, 05:15 PM	#13
Heavenleahangel Member How Do You Identify?: OFOS Femme; Earth bound Angel and Babygirl; Preferred Pronoun?: She, Angel, as long as it's respectful Relationship Status: Waiting for the One who can complete me Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Albany, NY~but originally from Georgia Posts: 562 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,257 Thanked 2,069 Times in 468 Posts Rep Power: 18675552	Ok, my turn. I have ALWAYS known I was seriously attracted to the "butchiest", hardest partners/dates I could find and later came to know and call them ftms. I absolutely adore/ enjoy/want an ftm that is comfortable in their own skin and identity to partner with. Don't get me wrong. I have helped 2 people in different stages of transitioning and absolutely would help someone else in their incredible journey to find themselves and be happy. While I never really thought of myself as a "lesbian" per se, I have come to accept that some ignorant people will label me this no matter what. The reason I am attracted and want to partner with an ftm is complex in itself. I am attracted to the confidence, maturity, swaggar, energy. I absolutely love kissing my partner in public and when some ignorant ass gawks or looks wondering "could it be?" "Is that a girl and a guy" type crap, I just smile and know in my heart it doesn't matter what the people think. I am happy with who I am and hy is happy with me! I love the energy and time put into getting ready to go out and I can not stress enough how much I love the bowchickawowwow dance! The time taken. The respect of boundaries. Knowing in my heart and mind that I "get it" and understand that sometimes the mind doesn't always match the body. The exact same things that make it "taboo" in others' eyes are a turn on for me! I crave it! Want it! Need it! Not just anyone has this. Only those who are secure and honest enough to live their own life for their own happiness. That makes me smile... __________________ Sweet Georgia Peach

10-23-2012, 06:30 PM	#14
FemmeBibliophile Member How Do You Identify?: i no longer do Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: null and void Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: where dreams disappear Posts: 473 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 121 Thanked 1,442 Times in 337 Posts Rep Power: 11169939	I, like others, agree that it's an energy thing. But I also have to say that I have been treated the absolute best out of any relationships by the FtMs that I have dated. They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said... At the end of the day, it's just who I am attracted to. __________________ The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go. ― Dr. Seuss, I Can Read With My Eyes Shut!

10-24-2012, 03:28 PM	#16
Darbonaire Timed Out How Do You Identify?: MALE Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Working on myself, thank you Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 186 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 343 Thanked 552 Times in 145 Posts Rep Power: 0	They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said... Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

10-24-2012, 07:21 PM	#17
Duchess Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Absolute Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Toe curling :-) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,382 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,792 Thanked 5,591 Times in 1,521 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	*All I can say is Yummy!!!* __________________ *無料のライブ*

10-24-2012, 09:18 PM	#18
Anya Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Lesbian non-stone femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, her Relationship Status: Committed to being good to myself Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Coast Posts: 8,258 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 39,306 Thanked 40,791 Times in 7,290 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Oh, the good old 1950's! How about this article which is typical of women's magazines of the time? Sounds super doesn't it? Signed, Anya (The anti-June Cleaver) Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955: Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed. Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary men. Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it. Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables. Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction. Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet. Be happy to see him. Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him. Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours. Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax. Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit. Don’t greet him with complaints and problems. Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him. Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice. ^Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him. A good wife always knows her place. __________________ ~Anya~ Democracy Dies in Darkness ~Washington Post "...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable." UN Human Rights commissioner

10-24-2012, 10:21 PM	#19
DMW Member How Do You Identify?: FTM/Male (Will 14) Relationship Status: Caught An Angel and she doesn't lie! Join Date: May 2012 Location: @ Posts: 784 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,256 Thanked 1,861 Times in 614 Posts Rep Power: 21474848	Actually, i prefer Donna Reed. Or Alice Kramden. I guess i am not that much of a gentleman. To each his own. Both of them had sexy ass brains, wit and sassiness. That special femme power that only a femme can have. Not to mention, the ability to do all of the stuff that i don't do or don't care to do. And all the other special things...those little girly/woman things...that make life better. Last edited by DMW; 10-24-2012 at 10:30 PM.

10-24-2012, 10:28 PM	#20
Gemme Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Queer Stone Femme Girl of the Unicorn Variety Preferred Pronoun?: She, as in 'She's a GEM' Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The roads are narrow here Posts: 36,587 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 182,195 Thanked 108,763 Times in 25,659 Posts Rep Power: 21474887	Yanno, every few years this argument pops up. It's a case of what floats someone's boat, not making social commentaries. The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now. That's like you (general you) saying "I like to beat my honey's ass black and blue before church every Sunday" and getting shit on for saying it. It's their thing and their kink, if you will. Let's see someone tell someone else how to do their kink and see what kind of fiasco we have. No one is pushing it on anyone else. Those in favor of this lifestyle are expressing their love for it. Someone please explain the problem with that to me. They aren't demanding women's rights be taken back to that time; they are saying 'this is how I am and what I like'. Period. __________________ Gemme's Journal I'm misunderestimated.