What attracts you to Ftms ......

[dark_crystal]

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking, if seeing an FTM as female, makes you ineligible as a partner, I would respond yes, it does for me. I'm not interested in being vulnerable with anyone that sees me as female.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Liam

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking, if seeing an FTM as female, makes you ineligible as a partner, I would respond yes, it does for me. I'm not interested in being vulnerable with anyone that sees me as female.

i personally don't think that i see an ftm as female...personally i think i see ftms as the only exceptions to my default prefernce for butches.

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female

so the question is whether transmen think that a girl who will date a transguy but will not date a cisguy or a transwoman therfore does NOT see a transguy as male

[Nina]

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female


I may need to read the whole thread, at the moment I am not in a space to do that...I don't understand the above statement...I wonder by whom you have been 'informed' these things?...are there some people who have the Last Say in what's what?

what I am saying is: if a transman ids as a man/male/non-female and someone thinks to themselves, 'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him'...there is/are some big problem(s) going on...seems to me, it would be best to stand down and find someone who's id you can respect and are attracted to, and date them...

nina

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Neen

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female


I may need to read the whole thread, at the moment I am not in a space to do that...I don't understand the above statement...I wonder by whom you have been 'informed' these things?...are there some people who have the Last Say in what's what?

what I am saying is: if a transman ids as a man/male/non-female and someone thinks to themselves, 'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him'...there is/are some big problem(s) going on...seems to me, it would be best to stand down and find someone who's id you can respect and are attracted to, and date them...

nina

i don't think "'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him"

however my (very insecure) trans ex jumped my sh!t a couple of times when he he asked me if i was attracted to so-and-so and i said "no, b/c he's a cisguy"

and from the two responses i have gotten, i am hearing that many others agree with him- the fact that i am attracted to transguys but not cisguys means that i don't see transguys as guys

this is not what i think, but it was what my ex thought and seems to be what Neen and Liam are telling me

[Jet]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

No, I guess not.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Jet

No, I guess not.

you guess i'm not ineligible? (and i see how my asking THAT is a testament to how convoluted the original question was...i seem to be very good at those)

[julieisafemme]

Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i personally don't think that i see an ftm as female...personally i think i see ftms as the only exceptions to my default prefernce for butches.

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female

so the question is whether transmen think that a girl who will date a transguy but will not date a cisguy or a transwoman therfore does NOT see a transguy as male

So you don't see an ftm as female, well then you would be eligible, for me. I would suggest you ignore the "logic," being presented to you as something you MUST think.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.

Originally Posted by Liam

So you don't see an ftm as female, well then you would be eligible, for me. I would suggest you ignore the "logic," being presented to you as something you MUST think.

thank you i feel reassured now lol...i definitely don't think of ftms as female but i have never had a good response to that particular accusation...cuz...the way i feel is the way i feel, regardless of whether it makes logical sense.

[paposeco]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

I get what your saying, it took a couple of readings, but I get it. Not here to judge you one way or the other. You have the right to like/love/desire whomever and however. Cool.
I know who I am, and don't need nor require anothere's opinion or perception of who I am or am not. People are always sooo preocupied about shovin' other people in little boxes, as if that would make the world or their lives a more logical place. Love and let Love be what Love is. (this label thing is wayyyy over rated)

[Billy]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

Wow ..lol I think ya got Me on this one ....And you may put Me under any umbrella you like , cause I am known to wear a boa every now and then .But why female

[Soft*Silver]

I dont think I would date a CIS male again. But I most certainly would date a FtM. I hope this is not offensive to anyone, but I am overjoyed that FtMs have given men back to me. I have said this in the past and I will say it again....I can have incredible sex with CIS men, but the minute they open their mouth to speak, all the glamour and heat goes out the door. It is their socialization at fault. Something is distinctly different in the socialization of the CIS male and the FtM male. Having been put through or surrounded by female socialization efforts, FtMs can reach beneath my skin and touch me where it counts...places CIS men sometimes arent even aware exists. And because I have walked in the hetero world and have been with CIS Men, I dont treat FtMs I date like a real butchy woman. They are men to me. I am not threatened about losing my lesbian license because I am bowling with a FtM.

I also need to point out that this whole thought of "if I think this way, then I cant think that way" is a really bad teeter totter to be on. The wonderful thing about my opinions is that I dont limit them to a certain number of considerations. Its not just men and women, butch or femme, FtM or MtF, transgender or queer....I can literally see and dream and envision an incredible bouquet of possibilities. Especially in regard to me. I am not a straight girl. I am not just a lesbian. These two dont make me a bisexual because it insists on a binary system. And I am sorry, I have had much more than these two choices...I have had incredible dates and relationships with people who didnt fit the "standard"....

and thats how primal we go, sometimes, when we try to accessorize our orientations and genders with labels. Like we are discussing the breed standard...well, FtMs are like this and CIS males are like that and poodles are to be clipped to show off this trait and bulldogs are to be presented this way so the judge...yada yada yada...

I love me my FtMs. Not cuz they are girls or queers. But because they are men. Men who dont make me want to pay the check and leave the restaurant alone.....

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

[chefhmboyrd]

can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be
uh...... WHAT?

so....
a Cis Man is a bio man?
and a Cis Woman is a bio woman?

really?
am i getting this right?

HELP!!!!

[Soft*Silver]

I am not a native american. And I despise when capitalism eats up the Native Culture and only nourishes the whites. I fear for the individuals from both the Native Culture and the White Culture when they are insensitive to one another. I am appalled and saddened by how whites have desecrated and destroyed the land that they literally stole from the Native Americans.

In saying this (and yes it is all heart felt) I am also saddened when a member of the white culture tries to honor the traditions and spirituality of the Native Culture and gets slammed for not getting it "right". The reaction given to usage of the term "two spirited" is more racist and prejudicial than the intent behind the post about two spirits.

I have spent my lifetime trying to be as sensitive as possible to people and living things around me. But it has to work both ways if its really going to work and leave a positive imprint. Sensitivity has to be given when genuine efforts are made and failed. In either direction.

When its not given, and veiled (or unveiled) hostility is grouched out, it only serves to make the other defensive. And worse, any who witness it, also learn that any attempts that fail, will result in being attacked, so why bother to try?

I myself loath when white females write books about native culture and spirituality and make thousands of dollars off it and give nothing to the culture they took it from. I refuse to buy the books. And I have brought my daughter up to see this as wrong, as well. And she has taught others to see this. And they have taught others...it is the web of communication, tightened by the spirituality of people who regardless of what they call it, are honoring the spirituality of others.


tones in posts can put a stop to any learning..

as for two spirited folks, I actually would like to know more about it now that its been brought up that my understanding of it might be whitened and not be correct at all. So I am going to do my research..not because I was shamed or scolded into it, but because I can read the value of the post, regardless of the tone that was used.

and I believe some FtM people might indeed see themselves as two spirited. But I will let others speak on that regard...

[Liam]

Originally Posted by chefhmboyrd

can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be
uh...... WHAT?

so....
a Cis Man is a bio man?
and a Cis Woman is a bio woman?

really?
am i getting this right?

HELP!!!!

This link was posted in another thread, you might find it illuminating:

http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html

[Leigh]

I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?

I don't get that

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Braedon

I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?

I don't get that

I don't believe that Toughy's concern was about the insinuation that transguys might have/identify with a portion of female spirit - I DO believe that Toughy's concern was about appropriation.

[Spirit Dancer]

Originally Posted by Diva

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

As a native american woman and a two spirited person, I just wanted to share this with you all.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.
We are proud to be two spirited and I honour both my female and male spirit and energy.