Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

"If you sprinkle when you tingle, please be neat and wipe the seat".

- Sign humorously posted in Dapper's grandmother's bathroom.

Ooops! I meant tinkle! (thanks Ezee).

[Jess]

I always wonder why every conversation regarding being butch and self image goes to the toilet.

I think at least for me, because it is that one place out in the world that constantly reminds me of just how "different" I am from "most" women. My hair is different.. my clothes are different, my demeanor is definitely different and it is a rarity that it is not pointed out to me when I step into a multi-stalled bathroom.

My struggles with body image started so early on that I can't even pinpoint when or how it began. My mom tells me of my crying myself to sleep when I was three because I couldn't pee out of my belly button. Apparently I saw my dad standing up to pee and thought that must be how you do it.

I have body dysphoria/ gender dysphoria in that I truly have a disconnect in "loving" the package I came in. It is a hard thing to describe as I don't necessarily want to change genders, I just don't deal well with the "norms" society has placed on mine. I am a masculine entity, no doubt and being in a visually female shell has been a very interesting thing to say the least.

I struggle with my size at times. I have a small frame and for many being small is equated to being weak. Many only view larger butches as "real" butches. For some , yes, size does matter.. LOL. It's hard to bulk up as the female body distributes weight differently and requires much more focused exercise to put mass in the "right" areas. Well, frankly, I am getting older and unless a miracle happens, that just isn't gonna work. I am by no means a weak person and I know this clearly. However, when it comes down to "body image" , I can allow myself to buy into the BS a little too often.

I am learning not to compare myself in the negative. I am learning to look at other butches clearly and when I do compare it is about internal issues. It is about whether or not they exemplify traits I respect or not. This is how I am seeing role models or folks I want to avoid. I tend to keep people at arms length and am trying to allow a few more in. Slowly and very selectively. I am reading people on different levels than I have in the past and am able to see beyond whatever facades or armor we put up and that is how I am seeing myself more clearly. I am not ready to put down my own shields.. and honestly, I know that only a handful of people will ever truly "know" me or my struggles. my insecurities.. or my true strengths.

I am not sure how many other butches feel similar, but I know for me it can be a painfully lonely path at times. It can also be an incredible journey living this life in the body we were given and helping other folks see beyond it. It is fraught with obstacles almost daily. I just keep moving through them. I hope everyone else does too. I know we have lost so many butch women to depression, angst, suicide, isolation and it breaks my heart. There are times when the world gets really ugly and all we can do is look to one another for the encouragement to keep on keeping on. I hope to be that encouragement.

Thanks for the topic.

[Jett]

I am highly "butch" (adjective) on the inside, always have been. I am also highly woman on the inside... and the flow of the two feels seamless to me dawn to dusk. On the outside I have my happy places, which may include a suit or tux- in addition to my long hair and makeup. I have a wicked hourglass figure that I hide in no way... it's just the way it is, I like it. I don't do cutesy, frilly or dresses though, guess it's just not my thing.

None of it feels like drag for me, or off limits... I just do what feels right. I spent most of my life under the pressure of others expectations, including my own... and I have to say now is screw it all cause I'm free, and it feels like friggen Nirvana...

No matter what you do... somebody's not going to be happy with it... so you might as well make yourself happy and well then after that... who the hell cares?

[tara_kerrie]

This is a great thread for me. I am currently looking for myself and my place in this world. I thought that I had found myself but I was wrong.
I think of myself as a "butch" but there are many "doubts" right now.
I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts on this matter and look forward to reading more.

[Just_G]

One of the biggest things I struggle with is the fact that people keep telling me to love myself, love who I am, I am okay just the way I am, be myself.....etc....blah! I love my personality, humor, integrity, work ethic.....you name it...I love a LOT of things about me, but to be really honest, I do not like the physical me one bit!

I know that some of you will know what I am trying to say when I say that it is so fucking hard to put in to words what a struggle it is internally...(let alone externally; the way the whole world sees you) to have to deal with insides matching outsides. I see myself one way in the mirror...which I try to avoid as much as possible....and when I see myself in pictures, I cringe. I do not like the way I look female...body wise. This has been so fucking hard as I have been out having to buy a whole new wardrobe for my new job in a very conservative company. Finding pants in my size with my inseam has been HORRIBLE! Thank God my mom sews and can hem all of them for me!

This clothes shopping experience has been so fucking disasterous.

Cheech and I were talking the other day about binding and how it all bunches up in the middle, making a bump in the middle of our chest, and how uncomfortable we always feel in our own bodies. I think if the insurance companies would help pay for some of the body modification things we want to have done, they wouldn't have to pay so much for anti-depressants because of people's body issues!

I am not depressed, just really fucking frustrated. I do not like my body one bit, but have learned to adapt and be content.

People can tell me til they are blue in the face how they see me or how to feel because they like the way I look, but it doesn't help. I do not like the way I look. (and this is not even a weight issue...this is just all "female body" stuff....blech!)

Sometimes when I am shopping, I feel like I am a kid shopping in the grown up department because my arms and legs are so short to be fitting in men's clothes...it sucks ass man!

[tara_kerrie]

I totally understand amd relate to what you are saying G. Since i have gained so much weight i see myself as a fat ugly blob that isnt good enough to be with anyone. I absolutely HATE shopping for new clothes.

[Just_G]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I totally understand amd relate to what you are saying G. Since i have gained so much weight i see myself as a fat ugly blob that isnt good enough to be with anyone. I absolutely HATE shopping for new clothes.

Kerrie, do me a favor, tell me something about yourself that you love.

I came off kind of negative in my post above, and I wish I would have worded some of that differently.

You see, I am one of the most positive people on this earth. (which from my post above, it doesn't sound like it....but I do have a couple of things that get me down...I just don't focus on them) I really try to find the good things when I don't feel so hot about myself. For example: I have 2 arms and 2 legs that function and I am a healthy person over all....I am truly blessed!! I don't take that for granted. I might struggle with body issues and not like certain things, but I am beyond thankful that I am healthy and able bodied to get around and do things that a lot of people would kill to do! I know that some people wouldn't give a shit what they looked like, they would just be happy if they could walk or feed themselves or even just be able to get out of their bed. I am blessed. Period.

I don't focus on what I don't like...I focus on what I have and what I like about myself.

I am always saying to my friends: Find the good. I know I drive them nuts sometimes!

[tara_kerrie]

G...
The only thing that I can say that I love about myself at the moment is this:

I can love unconditionally. When I do love unconditionally, I love with everything that I am.

I am a good listener.

When I am in a relationship, my partner comes first ALWAYS.

Right now I am in too much pain to think about anything else that I love about myself.

I have no self-confidence at all.

There is one thing that I LOVE about my body...I have a GREAT ass.

I wish the boobs were gone and I wish I weighed about 40-50 pounds less than I do.

I wish I was stronger than what I am.

Those are the things that I like and dont like about myself.

[Just_G]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

G...
The only thing that I can say that I love about myself at the moment is this:

I can love unconditionally. When I do love unconditionally, I love with everything that I am.

I am a good listener.

When I am in a relationship, my partner comes first ALWAYS.

Right now I am in too much pain to think about anything else that I love about myself.

I have no self-confidence at all.

There is one thing that I LOVE about my body...I have a GREAT ass.

I wish the boobs were gone and I wish I weighed about 40-50 pounds less than I do.

I wish I was stronger than what I am.

Those are the things that I like and dont like about myself.

Excellent! Thank you for replying back K!

You've got a big heart that is full of love!! You and I have that in common! My life coach told me last year that I need to become my own best friend. I was to quit with the negative self talk, and to tell those around me that if I did talk about myself in a negative way, that they were to kindly remind me that I shouldn't do that. Negative self talk brings us down even more and trying to correct it is a baby step in the right direction. In a positive direction. When you think something negative, over ride it by remembering something you like about yourself..something good.

I've met you, and I think that you are pretty cool...I loved talking to you at the Reunion and remember that you have a great sense of humor.

I think a lot of us wish we were X amount of pounds lighter, so I am sure several people reading this nodded their heads when reading that...I know I did. That is something I can do something about, but I know right now I am so busy that I can't put a lot of time in to it...but I have started to eat better and have quit gaining weight; now I will get my life in order and make the time to go walking every night to work on what I don't want.

Just one baby step in the right direction will do wonders for your self esteem...you just have to be patient and keep putting one foot in front of the other. You know the old saying: "Rome wasn't built in a day!"

If you want to get stronger, start with doing some push ups and lunges or squats...even if you just start off with 5 of each a day and add 5 more a few days later...you will gradually start feeling stronger..another way of baby stepping in the right direction.

You can do it...I have complete faith in you; as do a lot of people here! Remember that you have to be kind to yourself.

[Okiebug61]

I'm 50
I'm chunky
I'm gray
I'm achy
I'm almost as wrinkled as a pug in areas.
And by fucking god I love who I am where I am and have no issues with my body.

[AlexHunter]

Bringing the discussion back into the toilet...

I have many experiences to share with regards to public restrooms.

I normally use the men's restroom. I feel like I belong there much more than I belong in the women's. I don't particularly feel like getting screamed at or slapped.

I didn't always use the men's restroom. When I got sick of knowing that using the women's restroom would become an event of ample magnitude, I decided to venture into the other.

The women's restroom smells like artificial flowers. The men's restroom smells like piss.

When I was eighteen, I walked out of the women's restroom. I inspired a man to walk in! Trolling, genderqueer style.

I had an argument once with a middle-aged woman who insisted I was in the wrong bathroom. I flashed her to shut her up.

I've been smacked a few times for being a "boy" or "a man" in the ladies' room.

I've been yelled at in fear and terror. I've had women shriek at me and ask, "What are you doing in here?! Get out!"

I've been called a predator.

I've heard women whisper things to each other at the sight of me.

I've gotten confused looks, but those were expected.

I was once told to dress more feminine after minding my own business because I scared some lady washing her hands. I was twenty. I told her to fuck off.

In the men's room, I get an occasional nod of the head like "hey man" at most.

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

I was afraid to use the men's restroom because I was scared of being found out. I thought some big dude would kick my ass when he realized I was (biologically) female. That never happened. I started using the men's room out of frustration when I was twenty-one. Now, the only time I will use the ladies' room is if the men's is absolutely disgusting or completely occupied.

Recently, I went to IHOP with a few friends. We waited to be seated. I needed to pee. The one stall in the men's restroom was "out of order."

I really needed to pee, so I went into the ladies' room. It's ironic to feel like you're going to get assaulted, told off, or kicked out of the restroom that you "technically" belong in.

I braced myself and walked in. I pretended to have tunnel vision. As I was peeing, I realized a lady complained to management about me. Two managers walked inside. One asked the other, "Is there a man in here? Is it a man or a woman?" The other replied with, "I don't know, I haven't seen it."

When I walked out, one of the managers looked at me angrily and asked, "Sir! What are you doing in here?"

I said, "It's cool, I'm a woman."

She yelled at me for lying, so I pulled out my driver's license, pointed to the "F," and walked out.

[musicman]

I try not to use public restrooms, I make sure if I know I am going out, that I don't drink anything before leaving the house. If there are no washrooms where either sex can use I make sure that my partner comes with me. I make sure that as we step into the ladies room that my partner is talking to me. For me this lets the women in the washroom know 1. this person knows me 2. that I am in the right washroom.

I will NEVER walk into a ladies washroom without a female friend or my partner. Been there, done that and don't have the patience for the looks and snide remarks.

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

just incase anyone really wants to know--

...why do women feel the need to talk, -- it helps them suss out their place in the pecking order. and who they might need to be afraid of.

...look at themselves in the mirror, -- females (the girly types) are trained to do this, their sense of self worth is tied to it.

...and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? -- fear based, they worry if someone is a possible threat, they worry if someone else is sick (and possibly contagious )/ or might need help, they worry if a child is being treated correctly, they worry if their child is safe...

Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys?

...most likely not, but home is way safer...

So what makes people so different out of the home?
...fear

Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?
...all of the above,

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

Bringing the discussion back into the toilet...

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

.

Alex, because I'm not butch I can't know what you go through, but you can't know what I go through either. Why do we worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Because it's a place where we're in a vulnerable position with our pants down. Because if a man does deliberatly come into the women's room, he probably does have nefarious intent. Have women been assaulted by men in the bathroom? You bet. It once happened to a woman at one of my jobsites, and there was another recent case here in NYC. That one was particularly violent. I personally witnessed a young man stalk into the women's locker room so he could physically assault a woman he knew. Yes, the men really were predators.

Not looking hard enough to really see you is inexcusable. Harrassing and intimidating you out of the bathroom where you should belong is inexcusable. Women worrying about their person safety in the bathroom? I'll stop worrying when men stop assaulting women.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by AlexHunter

I wonder... why do women feel the need to talk, look at themselves in the mirror, and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys? So what makes people so different out of the home? Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?

I braced myself and walked in. I pretended to have tunnel vision. As I was peeing, I realized a lady complained to management about me. Two managers walked inside. One asked the other, "Is there a man in here? Is it a man or a woman?" The other replied with, "I don't know, I haven't seen it."

It??? Fucking IT???

People suck to the nth degree.

Originally Posted by boobookitty

just incase anyone really wants to know--

...why do women feel the need to talk, -- it helps them suss out their place in the pecking order. and who they might need to be afraid of.

...look at themselves in the mirror, -- females (the girly types) are trained to do this, their sense of self worth is tied to it.

...and worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? -- fear based, they worry if someone is a possible threat, they worry if someone else is sick (and possibly contagious )/ or might need help, they worry if a child is being treated correctly, they worry if their child is safe...

Really, do these people have two separate bathrooms at home - one for girls and one for boys?

...most likely not, but home is way safer...

So what makes people so different out of the home?
...fear

Why does using the bathroom need to be an adventure?
...all of the above,

Actually, I look in the mirror more to make sure I don't have a bat in the cave or spinach in my teeth more than anything. I don't care how smart or how pretty someone is, if they have one of the following, I'm going to have to try hard not to laugh. Because I have a 12 boy inside me that tends to laugh at that stuff.

I will assess the space when I initially walk in and before I leave for safety's sake. If my Spidey sense goes off, I leave. Immediately.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Alex, because I'm not butch I can't know what you go through, but you can't know what I go through either. Why do we worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Because it's a place where we're in a vulnerable position with our pants down. Because if a man does deliberatly come into the women's room, he probably does have nefarious intent. Have women been assaulted by men in the bathroom? You bet. It once happened to a woman at one of my jobsites, and there was another recent case here in NYC. That one was particularly violent. I personally witnessed a young man stalk into the women's locker room so he could physically assault a woman he knew. Yes, the men really were predators.

Not looking hard enough to really see you is inexcusable. Harrassing and intimidating you out of the bathroom where you should belong is inexcusable. Women worrying about their person safety in the bathroom? I'll stop worrying when men stop assaulting women.

Bathrooms are like traps. Enclosed. One exit. Not much room to maneuver should a fight occur. Safety's definitely a concern.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Alex, because I'm not butch I can't know what you go through, but you can't know what I go through either. Why do we worry about what others are doing in the bathroom? Because it's a place where we're in a vulnerable position with our pants down. Because if a man does deliberatly come into the women's room, he probably does have nefarious intent. Have women been assaulted by men in the bathroom? You bet. It once happened to a woman at one of my jobsites, and there was another recent case here in NYC. That one was particularly violent. I personally witnessed a young man stalk into the women's locker room so he could physically assault a woman he knew. Yes, the men really were predators.

Not looking hard enough to really see you is inexcusable. Harrassing and intimidating you out of the bathroom where you should belong is inexcusable. Women worrying about their person safety in the bathroom? I'll stop worrying when men stop assaulting women.

Yes! Exactly, Cheryl!

I am uber laxidazical at home and really don't ever double check things, but when I enter a public restroom ALL senses are on over-drive. I scan the floor and make a mental note of how many pairs of feet I see. I look in the mirror so I can get a better view of each stall, which doors are closed, etc. When I was around 10 there was a series of rapes happening at a local Denny's Restaurant. The victims were all young girls my age and Denny's was a restaurant my family frequented regularly since it was affordable for a large family such as ours. I remember being so scared that if I had to pee I would hold it until we got home. Then when we first moved to Tucson a man was stalking women at our local community college. He would hide in the restroom, standing on the toilet tank, and when there was only one woman there he would attack. He was finally caught but it really shook up our community.

On another note, since I have only ever been partnered with very butch women, I always accompany them to the restroom when we are out in public. From my personal experience, a smile, direct eye contact, and a hearty, "you doing ok?" defuses the situation almost immediately. And if you ever need a femme friend to accompany you, just grab me and off we'll go. Just last week at Target a gender ambiguous person was standing outside of the ladies bathroom looking absolutely terrified. As I approached to go in I smiled and asked my usual, "how are you doing?" and she smiled and said "I guess I'm ok." I asked if she wanted to walk in before me and she looked SO relieved and said yes.

So, as frustrated as I am for you guys, please know that for me it is about my personal safety. I am very trusting of just about everyone but I will admit that bio men have to work a little bit harder to earn that trust.

[sarahwho]

Originally Posted by Okiebug61

The 2003 International Building Code requires that all new construction and substantial renovation for public restrooms include a family, or unisex, bathroom. Most new, large venues such as malls, airports, and sports arenas, now include at least one type unisex bathroom in addition to men's and women's public restrooms. But not all states have adopted the codes. Planning construction or renovation? Check your local public restroom regulations.

You boi's can come into ANY bathroom I'm in! No really!

[MrSunshine]

I have found that having had an arm cut off was less painful than using a public restroom.
It's only pain, you get use to it.

[StoneOne]

not to I guess when the courts change it and I dont answer they will get it..... but what do u call them when I'm called "IT"

[Morgan]

When I walk into a women's restroom, I find myself feeling very awkward....I get double takes and outright stares. Some kids will say "mommy is that a boy or a girl"? And the parents, embarased usually will tell their kids to "shhhhhh"...
At the gym it is even more awkward, as the showers and dressing area is open and women are in there changing. I avoid eye contact or looking over in that direction.
Is this just me or do other butches feel the same? I avoid public restrooms as much as possible and if I see a private family restroom I will use that instead.
Lately at the gym while lifting, usually more than most guys there....I get a few stares, today I got some comments and they started talking about their male genitilia. I actually was called a "freak" today....under there breath of course. Like I didn't know, makes me smirk even more and feel a little smug, jealousy....hmmmm, yep think so.