05-09-2012, 01:11 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
by my name Preferred Pronoun?:
He, him Relationship Status:
single Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Here there everywhere.
Posts: 2,097
Thanks: 4,620
Thanked 6,239 Times in 1,687 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
|
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Teddybear For This Useful Post: |
05-09-2012, 01:18 PM | #22 |
Junior Member
How Do You Identify?:
Just a guy Preferred Pronoun?:
'He' will be fine. Relationship Status:
happily involved Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 57
Thanks: 55
Thanked 67 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 41799 |
Great Topic!
I work with the public for decades and constantly hear all kinds of non-PC crap. Big topic. A small few (older) male patient/customers have nudged me with crude (sexual) comments about women in the office/ store. The first time this happened, it hurt and stunned me. Now, I maintain my professional composure, but look them directly in the eye with what I term- 'polite disgust' to which they have backed off in embarrassment. I can't imagine not reacting with disgust, just in order to blend in with the mainstream. Unfortunately, there will always be insensitive, rude and ill-mannered people out there. By reacting in a way to convey that the comment isn't cool is our responsibility. I agree with the others that if the circumstances permit, come-backs regarding their mothers, sisters and daughters seem the best way to hold a mirror to their behavior. I have also sadly witnessed some of the biggest proponents of mysogyny to be cis/het-women. The thought chain is pathetic, right? Don't get me started...
__________________
Ciao, ~Joe Mario |
05-09-2012, 01:35 PM | #23 |
Junior Member
How Do You Identify?:
Just a guy Preferred Pronoun?:
'He' will be fine. Relationship Status:
happily involved Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 57
Thanks: 55
Thanked 67 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 41799 |
PS:
PS: The article Quintease linked in post #1 said it best with the term;
"weird version of intimacy" men have. This idea has been in my thoughts for some time now and relates here. I am growing more convinced that there are (weird, if you will, and hormonally-related) differences in how bio-males share intimacy. None of which are "pretty" (ehhh, as it were...) Being on T has given me, admittedly for the first time, a better understanding of why males do (some) of the things they do.
__________________
Ciao, ~Joe Mario |
05-09-2012, 02:50 PM | #24 | ||
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
Butch Preferred Pronoun?:
she Relationship Status:
Truly Madly Deeply Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: In My Head
Posts: 2,805
Thanks: 6,326
Thanked 10,618 Times in 2,489 Posts
Rep Power: 21474851 |
Quote:
Quote:
Misogyny and sexism are integral and accepted parts of the fabric of society in general. They are both unconscious and subtle and purposeful and bold. This kind of stuff just is and it’s pretty much accepted, even rewarded. Maybe it’s a relief when someone says something extremely misogynistic and sexist cause that’s easy to see and it might make us feel better cause we think if we can combat this blatant kind of misogyny things will improve. But that is an illusion. Misogyny/sexism is such a fact of life that one would have an easier time getting people to see air. Perhaps class, status and environment determine the likelihood that men will pull their punches. But that’s just pus icing on a shit cake. Because the truth is this is how human beings have been socialized to treat the female gender and this is how most really feel whether they are comfortable enough to express it or not. |
||
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Cin For This Useful Post: |
05-11-2012, 12:31 PM | #25 | ||||||||
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Queer, trans guy, butch Preferred Pronoun?:
Male pronouns Relationship Status:
Relationship Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,329
Thanks: 4,090
Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,032 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
I am not talking about the garden variety, ho-hum misogynist things, I've tried to make clear within both my posts that I am stating that this extreme "hair-raising violent, racist, homophobic rhetoric" is not something men, in my experience, leave for when women aren't around. I hear it said to women's faces every day. Where I work so much disgusting shit gets said to female employees by both fellow empoyees and customers, it's not even funny. Management doesn't give a shit (just as they don't give a shit when a customer uses the N-word or is excessively racist towards an employee...nothing is done, customer is not asked to leave, all the company wants is money and they couldn't care less how you treat employees). I've heard guys talk about women as nature's punching bag to women's faces, pedophilia jokes get made galore, rape jokes. We had a poster up that was a "name a paint colour" for the paint section of our store. The colour on the poster was purple and some nightcrew ass, for the jollies, decided to suggest "black eye" as the name of the colour..."cause the bitch didn't listen." I had to be the one to go scratch the whole thing out because every time I passed it I was a step closer to kicking the shit out of the guy. Not a thing was said by management or most anyone. "Just vandalism." I've heard all kinds rape shit, objectification of women of colour and any nasty thing you can think of that I've heard while I'm among guys said to women. What I'm saying is that these extreme things that some see as "shocking," as "something that men say when women aren't around," is in my experience something they do say when women are around. Quote:
I'm not attempting to blame women at all. I don't understand why you're saying "once again." I've done exactly the opposite, or at least that has been the entire insane driving force behind every single one of my posts in this thread. To show the consequences of misogyny and that this isn't some hidden side of men. The portion of my post you snipped is taken out of context, and context is 100% relevant to what I'm trying to say here. Here is the entirety of it. Quote:
Quote:
I was talking about hearing men say things to women, specifically. I stated that I have heard men saying these things to women's faces for ages, and especially at my job. I've had friends born into extremely poor neighbourhoods who have also talked about little to no inhibition as far as the language used to discuss women in front of women. It's about me being able to compare what men say to women's faces and what they "say behind women's backs," and I really haven't seen a massive difference even in situations where they didn't realise I was trans. What I was getting at when I was saying that management, for example, don't give a shit when a woman or even a transguy who is openly trans says something is also my commentary on the notion that transguys somehow have the power to change men's attitudes. Many of us really don't if we don't want to live "stealth." The first post I wrote in this thread was more focusing on that, but this also touches on it. I live quite openly as a transguy because being open is important to me so that society stops thinking that there are only two sexes and two ways of being male/female. Cis people aren't the be all and end all, and transmen aren't "once woman/female" and transwomen aren't "once men/male" unless stated specifically by that trans person. But being openly trans has its pitfalls when challenging misogyny among men and is rarely if ever successful among straight cis men. Even when I'm not in an environment where I'm openly trans, if you become known as the guy who challenges misogyny, I've also noticed that the conversation while you're around becomes extremely reserved over time...which has less to do with sex or gender, and more to do with avoidance. At least in my experience. It's almost expected that men are going to be crude and violent in the construction industry. And that's what I'm talking about when I'm talking about socially-accepted verbal violence towards women. Maybe if I were sitting at some cocktail party with a bunch of cigar-smoking rich corporate white guys I'd have a different experience. But that isn't my experience, and I'd guess that probably isn't most people's experiences, or at least most people I know. Quote:
I agree, but I still think the intersection of class and sexism, just as with racism, is a huge part of the discussion, though. It cannot be left out. It's the same reason upper middle class white men still are more likely to be verbally abusive and crude toward a sex worker, minimum wage worker or any woman of colour than a middle or upper class white woman. They may be all sugar and spice in front of their wife or girlfriend (who is also likely white and middle or upper class), but remove her from the equation and you'll see what they're really like. Not as much reservation occurs in front of women who aren't of that class/race combo. We can't ignore that. So when we have a topic that says "what men say about women when they aren't around," then maybe we should consider renaming it to "what men say about women when white middle or upper class women aren't around." In that case the discussion cannot only be about misogyny, but about a specific type of misogyny that is strongly related to race, class and ability. And as for the transguys writing the article...I also wonder what they're class and race are and how that affects their experience and the difference they claim to have noticed. Quote:
Quote:
Anyways, back on to the original topic, aishah's post perhaps says what I've been trying to get at better than I have: Quote:
|
||||||||
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to EnderD_503 For This Useful Post: |
05-22-2013, 06:39 AM | #26 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Transman (male) Preferred Pronoun?:
He, Him, His ect. Relationship Status:
Handsome bastard. Tournaments Won: 1 Join Date: May 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 727
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,824 Times in 499 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
To be honest I haven't heard too many negative things from most other guys. I hear the occasional complaints about how women are confusing or things their girlfriends do that annoy them.
There was only one instance that ever bothered me- When I was about 20 I was on a bus. I was with a friend who was a little younger than me on the bus. She decided to start poking me and teasing me so I reacted by tickling her side to get her to stop. She let out a scream and then we both burst into laughter. She ended up getting off the bus and this weird guy came up to me. He was mabey about 30. He asked me if she was my girlfriend and I said no. He went on a tirade about how women could get away with anything. It really creeped me out. I pretended to listen because I felt legitimately threatened by this man. I assume from the way he talked to me he assumed I was a 15 year old boy. Which sickened me to be honest. After his tirade about women he started a tirade about god. He asked me if I was christian. At this point I was getting kind of pissed off. I firmly said no. Got up and sat next to the driver till I had to get off the bus. I was really glad he didn't get off at the stop I got off at. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Bad_boi For This Useful Post: |
07-24-2015, 12:01 AM | #27 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Butch Woman Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Married Join Date: May 2013
Location: California
Posts: 695
Thanks: 904
Thanked 1,318 Times in 506 Posts
Rep Power: 9408452 |
It's A Mad Mad Potty Mouth World
Men mistake me for another guy all the time.There would be this group of guys(me included) and women were always a hot topic.We(women) are blamed for all their headaches.Women have also mistaken me for "another woman" and men were always to be blamed for this or that.The blame game.That's all it is,boring.
I have heard vulgar language used by both sexes,about the female and male anatomy.When you ask them to stop they only get worse. My 2 cents worth |
The Following User Says Thank You to Tuff Stuff For This Useful Post: |
11-18-2015, 09:54 PM | #28 |
Junior Member
How Do You Identify?:
It's complicated/stone butch Preferred Pronoun?:
they/them Relationship Status:
godspouse Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 18
Thanks: 5
Thanked 31 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 9 |
A lot of men who say these things don't mean it in earnest. Most of the time it's an off-color expression of frustration and a way to desensitize to the awful things in the world, not actual disrespect or misogyny. I've said rude things in private about people I'm angry at, and rude words for various attributes of theirs have been deployed in those moments. It doesn't mean I hate their entire nationality or race or sex.
There are some men who say misogynist things and mean it, but in general nobody thinks highly of them except for their own kind. That was a conundrum I ran into when living as male, the dual expectation that I imitate that and be punished for it. I had plenty of male friends before and very few of them behaved in the way people expected me to. I started to because I had to, I wasn't in a position to argue or bargain when it was contingent on getting HRT. I overdid it like I was expected to. Nobody liked it. Everyone wanted me to chill out and stop acting like a tool. Then I overdid it in the opposite direction, and ran into some actual tools who capitalized on my unwillingness to behave as one. I then took some time to re-evaluate life and decided I had to be capable of out-tooling the tools without becoming one. I do it for exercise now and then, in places designated for the performance of toolishness, so if and when the enemy come a-knocking I'll be ready and unintimidated. |
11-19-2015, 09:07 AM | #29 |
Practically Lives Here
How Do You Identify?:
Transgender Preferred Pronoun?:
He/him/his Relationship Status:
Single Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 17,752
Thanks: 31,018
Thanked 28,871 Times in 9,718 Posts
Rep Power: 21474863 |
I hear men complain about women regarding things like women are just here for us men to use. Or a woman say that the only reason she is with a man is for his money. Or both sexes talk about each others inadequaticies in the bedroom or in their relationship.
I know I am guilty of these things but when I say things it's due to frustration. Mostly done in private. |
The Following User Says Thank You to JDeere For This Useful Post: |
|
|