[Beau]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. ... Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is

Yes, I agree; that's the problem. Hopefully, this discussion will create a lasting solution for the tone and interactions on this site.

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

Bully, I think you articulate succinctly why as butch women this discussion is necessary. Also, for those of us who do identify as lesbians, it's amazing to see that at times within this community that word might as well be leprosy. I find that incredibly sad, and I don't understand it. at. all. And yeah, I find it homophobic, which is incredibly ironic. (to paraphrase Met)

Originally Posted by rlin

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

Yes, the irony is thick.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

Absofuckinglutely.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

Your perspective and gentle treatment of all issues surrounding this subject makes you just that -- an advocate and an educator. It's greatly appreciated, AtLast.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r). ... Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony, Metropolis

Well, Met, I hope that by pointing it out, some who refuse to see it or simply can't see it will finally understand that discrimination within our community only feeds the discrimination in the larger society we inhabit. And that's why it's so important that we seek a way past this narrow mindset concerning ourselves.

Originally Posted by BullDog

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

Bully -- I so hope they do. I'd truly like to understand this better for myself. I realize that this is in part the rationale behind Dapper's opening post, and I'd just like to know what's behind that feeling. Not so I can respect Dapper's identity -- because I believe I already do --- but because I'd like to truly understand it in a way that I don't currently. And, I hope all butches who feel this way will speak up to help me understand.

Originally Posted by Heart

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

Thanks for posting this, Heart. It goes to the heart of the matter.