A request

[Kobi]

Sorry Toughy, cant see the small type myself these days lol.

Chancie, I am not one to use "politically correct" to be dismissive. I have gotten more than a few unpleasant messages when I have used "lesbian". Sometimes it is hard to know what is appropriate to whom on any given day.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Beau

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.
So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

I have to admit that sometimes I just feel confused/frustrated/tired when it comes to all the labels and identities. OF COURSE, I respect everyone and their choice of label and identity... I do. And I do love to read/learn/process/discuss it. I love the debate. And I want folks to feel respected and called their chosen name (his/him/hys/hym/hyr/her/hir...)

AND

Sometimes for me I get to this place in my head where I think, in the straight world, we get so labeled and stereotyped...do we really want to continue down that path in the Queer world? Are we just separating more?

AND

Then I think, well people are going to label us anyway (human nature?), outside and inside the community, so might as well pick something you like!

[adorable]

Here is what I have learned:

Some people see Butch as their gender in the same way that some people see Femme as their gender.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

I do love to read/learn/process/discuss

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

[ruthie14]

Can't say I'm not confused....but I'm trying. If I ever make the mistake, please gently tell me. I respect everyone here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I'll continue to read and learn. Thanks Dapper

[sweetfemme247]

this thread is very useful to me, since I have in the past used the word him/her and butch/femme wrongly, I dont know everything about them.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by ruthie14

Can't say I'm not confused....but I'm trying. If I ever make the mistake, please gently tell me. I respect everyone here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I'll continue to read and learn. Thanks Dapper

No worries, Ruthie.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Waldo

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

YES. This. I believe that if we could routinely do this: "I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do." then the conflicts would stop.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Waldo

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

I think there is an expectation that we do "keep track". I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but there have been comments in other threads about people not using the right pronoun and it is perceived as being disrespectful because one cannot remember which the person prefers.

[AtLast]

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

[BullDog]

Amen AtLast! Woman is not a dirty word.

I think what is causing the recent consternation (and it isn't just one particular person judging by the responses and thanks) is butch women speaking up and people are uncomfortable seeing butch and woman in the same sentence without a bunch of qualifiers a few times and then needing to say, no, no, not me. Really? I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

[adorable]

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

[rlin]

I find this subject very interesting, of course. It hits really close to home for me.

I havent been around this online community, that has been busy being built into what it is, for many years. When I started coming to these sites I started figuring out what kind of labels I would use to describe myself, especially since that is one of the very first things it was demanded that I do. I gotta tell you that it took me a few days to register the first time; I didnt have any idea what i identified as, I just knew that some things I definitely had an aversion to saying about myself.

When reading here I admit to still being confused about gender and sex and what is PC. I am butch. I am a big manly butch woman. I take pride in being a woman. I dont want to be a man. I almost choke when i have to fill out a form and say that I am female. I don't feel female.

As I am reading, I realize that the way I think of butch is opposite to what I see is others definition of butch.
To me my gender is a woman. My sex is a butch. I am a butch woman, not a female woman.

OK.

I said all of the above to show that with best intentions and with everything that I feel is right I may inadvertently say the wrong thing to someone - May? Hell, I have, surely.

This to me is as simple as the live and let live philosophy that we should all adhere to. A newbie in the midst may say all kind of things that they have never considered and have never been exposed to. These folks should be educated about the fact that some of the members are touchy about things and feel strongly about pronouns. That said, we can all tell by now, thru the reading of many posts and statements, whether someone is trying to hurt or is just saying their truths. Some of us just dont have the time or the brain function to take notes or remember exactly who wants what.

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

We each live. We each learn. We each fuck-up, often, thats why we learn.
I wish for the benefit of the doubt.
I dont want to say that we should all do any one thing. I dont want to suggest that we all shouldnt have to put the disclaimers in each post.
I do wish we would all just live and let live.

And. in closing, let me add the disclaimer that i know i didnt say this as eloquently and as directly as i envisioned in my head, that means i probably stepped on some toes in my attempt to tread lightly on an issue that is sensitive to many. I apologize in advance for anything hurtful or insensitive that i may have said while describing my take on this matter.
hmmm...
I think that covers it.

Sincerely,
rlin

[Martina]

Originally Posted by BullDog

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

[Jett]

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

[BullDog]

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I think I used to use the phrase female/woman identified in a similar way that Metro says. I just don't find it useful anymore because it leaves people out and also may assume more commonalities than are actually there.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

No, it isn't....

[Nat]

Is there Lesbian-bashing going on somewhere?