The Limp-Wristed Hand Gesture

[Nat]

Today at dinner, my mom was describing my grandfather to my partner. While talking about his love of cooking, she said, "because he's a little, you know..." and did the limp-wristed hand gesture suggesting he was gay/prissy.

My reaction was to say, "Mom, don't make that gesture! You're talking to two lesbians." She blew it off, my partner said she wasn't offended, and I pretty much forgot about it.

Until my mom cornered me when we got home, brought it up again and acted hurt that I would suggest she was in some way anti-gay. So now she's sulking and I'm stressed that my mom's upset with me, and I'm also thinking about this gesture.

I don't see people making this gesture much anymore. In high school, junior high, maybe elementary school - this was a gesture that I saw a lot and also performed my fair share of. It never occurred to me back then that it was offensive. Because I sucked.

But now it seems pretty offensive to me.

I'm making a poll for this thread. Basically I thought it might be something worth discussing. It's something I hadn't thought about in years until I saw my mom do it today.

[MsTinkerbelly]

I have done it myself, and probably within the last six months...I did it when i was with my wife. I'm not sure why I thought it appropriate even in private, because I find it belittling and more than offensive. I would never do it in front of anyone else and risk someone being offended or hurt. It was quickly done as a sort of "shorthand" while watching a show where one of the male characters seemed femmy.

So why did I think it was okay?

[pajama]

I haven't seen it in a long time. I would guess that it was done alot in the past when "gay" and "cancer" were whispered or not brought up in polite conversation.

I personally don't get offended by it, but I don't get offended when I'm lumped in to various stereotypes I fit in to.

A

[iamkeri1]

This gesture - for me - is part of those words or gestures that are OK with me if you are queer, but which shouldn't be done by straight people, or by queers in front of straight people.

Like I call myself queer to myself, and to other queers who know and love me, and it is fine (and affirming) if they call me that as well. However, I pretty much don't like it if non-queers call me that, or use it about others in conversation, and I call people out for it when it happens. I also call them out about agist, classist, racist and anti handicapped remarks, as much as I have energy for.


Your mom probably is not what she would call anti-gay. But we are who we are, raised in the world we were raised in, and pretty much all of us have prejudices no matter how long or diligently we struggle against them. I was raised without any significant prejudice in the 1960's, marched for civil rights, have always had African American friends, and raised two racially mixed sons, but I know I have not "beat" all my prejudices despite a lifetime of trying.

Your Mom feels bad, and she should feel bad, but try not to take on her stress. It's not that she said it in front of two lesbians, it's that she said it at all. But she's still your Mom and you still love her and she still loves you. That is not going to change over a chance gesture.
Smooches,
Keri

[Mtn]

I voted, to me it is offensive, words and actions are weapons, to me it's the same as calling someone a fag or dyke, as BAD words. Then again, retarted and idiot are bad words in my world. Maybe i'm overly sensitive? I'm okay with that.

[girl_dee]

I agree the word retarded used in any negative way as well as fucktard ticks me off. What I hate more is *that's so gay* when speaking about something someone doesn't like. WTH does gay have to do with anything?

I don't like the hand gesture thing either!

[iamkeri1]

When I first heard "that's so gay" out of my kids mouth I was shocked. It took a while to expunge it from their vocabulary, but I haven't heard it in a long time now. In fact, my son, who has a drama class, was asked to memorize a solo part that had a dirogatory remark about queers in it and he told his teacher he was not comfortable saying it, and he rephrased it to be not so negative.

"Retarded" is a much more persistent word, though I try to discourage it's use as well.

Words DO have power. They can hurt, even kill. We should adapt a policy of giving as little pain as possible with our words.

Smooches,
Keri

[Soft*Silver]

I am not ok with someone using this gesture.

I have spoken out against the use of this every time I have witnessed it.

My daughter has done so as well, since she was a wee child.

She teaches kids in her kindergarten class now, its not an acceptable gesture to make

[Venus007]

It depends on who is using the gesture. If I am with my queer friends and we are awash in camp then it is alright. A straight person doing the gesture to indicate someone is gay is not alright.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Venus007

It depends on who is using the gesture. If I am with my queer friends and we are awash in camp then it is alright. A straight person doing the gesture to indicate someone is gay is not alright.

exactly how i feel

[Ebon]

I've done it and will probably do it again.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

This gesture - for me - is part of those words or gestures that are OK with me if you are queer, but which shouldn't be done by straight people, or by queers in front of straight people.

I have always been puzzled as to why people of various groups accept that certain derogatory gestures, names, etc are acceptable when used within the group.

If we are not willing to say "Hey, that is wrong/offensive, even amoungst us," then we really should not be allowed to complain when someone outside of the group does it.

We should all stand up for what we believe to be right-even if the people in the wrong are ourselves or our peers.

[EnderD_503]

I don't like the gesture. It's up there with "that's so gay" for me. It's definitely something I speak up about when I see it.

I think your mom feeling hurt that you would think she was being anti-gay is something that needs to be addressed with all allies, whether we're talking about allies to the queer community, trans community, POC, women etc. Many people think they are allies, and that some things that they do or say they don't "mean" in an offensive way. Unfortunately, intention does not always make it any less offensive or derogatory. I do think there's a difference between being homophobic and saying something homophobic. It's definitely a learning process for allies, since they don't know what it's like to be a part of the queer community (or other similar communities), so sometimes they don't consider how certain comments meant in jest might hurt others. But helping them through that learning process is important, imo.

I also want to make a comment about "being offensive/offended" and the idea that because someone finds something hurtful or offensive that they are being "too sensitive." I don't think understanding the power of words/terms/gestures that target marginalized groups is being "too sensitive." It's understanding privilege and how it functions against certain target groups who don't have that same kind of power.

Originally Posted by LaneyDoll

I have always been puzzled as to why people of various groups accept that certain derogatory gestures, names, etc are acceptable when used within the group.

If we are not willing to say "Hey, that is wrong/offensive, even amoungst us," then we really should not be allowed to complain when someone outside of the group does it.

We should all stand up for what we believe to be right-even if the people in the wrong are ourselves or our peers.

I think it depends on context. For example, if a trans person identifies themselves as a "tranny," a gay man as a "fag" or a lesbian as a "dyke," these are self-identifying terms that are reclamatory. They are not meant in a derogatory sense, nor as a generalisation about all trans people/gay men/lesbians. The use of these terms by straight and/or cis people as generalisations or in a derogatory fashion, on the other hand, is not acceptable, imo. I think the same goes for this gesture in some contexts, among queer men (since they are often the target with that particular gesture) for example.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Nat

Today at dinner, my mom was describing my grandfather to my partner. While talking about his love of cooking, she said, "because he's a little, you know..." and did the limp-wristed hand gesture suggesting he was gay/prissy.

My reaction was to say, "Mom, don't make that gesture! You're talking to two lesbians." She blew it off, my partner said she wasn't offended, and I pretty much forgot about it.

Until my mom cornered me when we got home, brought it up again and acted hurt that I would suggest she was in some way anti-gay. So now she's sulking and I'm stressed that my mom's upset with me, and I'm also thinking about this gesture.

I don't see people making this gesture much anymore. In high school, junior high, maybe elementary school - this was a gesture that I saw a lot and also performed my fair share of. It never occurred to me back then that it was offensive. Because I sucked.

But now it seems pretty offensive to me.

I'm making a poll for this thread. Basically I thought it might be something worth discussing. It's something I hadn't thought about in years until I saw my mom do it today.

Hi Nat, this is an interesting topic, thanks for starting it.
From your post i can't tell if your grandfather was gay, and it doesn't really matter to me. What i can tell, because i come from a sexist culture, is that for her there was something not "manly" about his love of cooking (in her opinion). That must have been what she was taught.

I think that as a daughter, my mom and i have similar challenges with sexism, and different experiences. When she says sexist things now, I try to move us both forward with compassion and humor. i do address things that come up with her, but i try to do it in the spirit of allies helping each other.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hi Nat, this is an interesting topic, thanks for starting it.
From your post i can't tell if your grandfather was gay, and it doesn't really matter to me. What i can tell, because i come from a sexist culture, is that for her there was something not "manly" about his love of cooking (in her opinion). That must have been what she was taught.

I think that as a daughter, my mom and i have similar challenges with sexism, and different experiences. When she says sexist things now, I try to move us both forward with compassion and humor. i do address things that come up with her, but i try to do it in the spirit of allies helping each other.

My grandfather is beyond complicated. I might share more about that in an inner sanctum thread, but would prefer not to do that here.

I think perhaps the ugliest thing about my mother's gesture is that I probably taught it to her as a kid.