Third or Other Gender Butch

[Jett]

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

[DapperButch]

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread.

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

[DapperButch]

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

[AtLast]

I think I fit somewhere in other , biologically, as a female-bodied butch. Which is comfortable for me. My gender remains female, however, I have a difficult time with the traditional binary as it is too constraining for everyone. 3rd-gendered is something I have to give a lot of credence to.

I think that my being lesbian might relate to my choosing to refer to myself as female in terms of gender (it is just an interwoven state of being for me). Been thinking a lot about this and just know that part of my identification as female has to do with my absolute connection to female to female bodied sexuality. No, these are not the same (gender/sexuality), but for me they are very personally interrelated.

Being a more masculine female and the processes and dynamics of being with another female (of the femme variety, which includes a range), is simply hot and satisfying, sexually and in everyday interactions of being relational. I love how my being a female-bodied butch is appreciated by a femme partner.

I absolutely support every personal distinction of gender (and queerness) that comes out of this community. Yanno... that diversity thang! And I so wish that gender fluidity and the multi-dimensional nature of both gender and sexuality would just become the norm!

Taking stock in cross-cultural perspectives of both gender and sexuality has been the most freeing experience for me as a butch and a human being. So much in US/Western thought (other than Native American explanations and spirituality) simply doesn't fit for me … and a whole hell of a lot of other people!

Finding peace, balance and harmony with all of this is paramount for me. Then, again, that is what I always seek in life.

[Jess]

Just my personal observations along my journey:


In the 80's, the big thing for "most" ( not all) lesbians/ queer women/ dykes was to be androgynous.

Main Entry: an·drog·y·nous
Pronunciation: \an-ˈdrä-jə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin androgynus hermaphrodite, from Greek androgynos, from andr- + gynē woman — more at queen
Date: 1651
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous marriage>
— an·drog·y·nous·ly adverb
— an·drog·y·ny \-nē\ noun


Then, it seemed a "reclaiming" of the Butch-femme dynamic surfaced in the mid to late 90's. Greatly visible at first in the Leather community(this was also about the same time BDSM enthusiasts became such a "trend" so it makes sense) , where Butch and Femme never really died out. Along with this resurfacing came drag kings as a phenom and the popularity of our b-f websites exploded.

Transsexual folks came out more and more gaining acceptance ( not always, of course but moreso than ever in the past) and the terms transgendered and genderqueer and genderfuct became hot words in our community.

In the last 20- 25 years along "our" evolution we have been knocking down walls so hard and fast it is hard for us to even keep up with our own sledgehammers.

We have had threads/ discussions/ arguments about inclusion, definition, gender theory, binary alignment, antiquated terminology. These discussions may go on forever, LOL! I see them as necessary for anyone going along a path that veers from any "norm" that society has perpetuated.

Most of my life I have felt other. There are times when I thought I would transition. I still am not completely comfortable in my own skin, however I am more aligned to the natural fluctuation of energies or mentalities that occur within me than I am in making a surgical/ chemical change. I am never faced with whom I think should be in my mirror. Sometimes it is distressing, sometimes it is kinda fun.Sometimes, I think I just spend way too much time thinking about it instead of just "being".

Good topic. I am more comfortable discussing this here than the "female/ woman identified butch" thread. I don't know why. This just seems a more natural discussion and for some reason less re-hashing.

A great many science fiction stories speak of a time when the human race becomes androgynous or even asexual. It is interesting to see the great number of folks speaking to feeling "other gendered".

Thanks Metropolis!

[Daywalker]

A quick note, as I subscribe to read more:


As far back as I can remember, I have always viewed my gender through
my mind and spirit...not through my body. For life moments when the physical
me is called up, such as intimacy...well, my 'pleasure zones' are where they
are (gawd I hope this is gonna make sense) kinda like a belly button. Some have
'inn-ees' and some have 'out-ees'. My 'zones' have been physically assigned
as an 'inn-ee', but still...I do not relate to being female...or male.


Will I utilize these zones and not get uncomfortable? Yes. Because I still
do not connect with my physical being as a gender. This is not a denial,
this is not due to an adverse experience, this is not due to anything...other
than my mind and spirit being content, and it just feels as though this
has been my natural state of being, even as a child.


My attraction and preference has always been a natural state for me
as well...in that it has only been for women. I am sure there are folks
who relate just as I do, that have a natural attraction for their opposite
sex. Another perspective that I was privy to growing up...that sexual
preference is not defined by gender identification.


I'd like to read along and jump in here and there,
but of course...first I'd like to thank Met for starting this thread.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread.

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.

Originally Posted by Dapperbutch

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

[Jett]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread

Words

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I know this is going to sound a bit wierd to others but it's not to me...

I've always said that lots of people out there have more than one gender. I'm one of those. And one of my genders just don't fit in "woman" - it fits in feminine. It's non-female, non-male, but feminine. Sometimes when I get very body disphoric, I have trouble understanding why I don't fit into my own body the way I feel I should.

It used to be horrific at times. Now just slightly off-putting and annoying.

I wouldn't call it a third gender. It's it's own thing and plenty of people feel that way sometimes. Frankly, half the planet has probably felt that wierd seperation of self from body. in a "this isn't quite me" way.

Perhaps it's because of disociating, perhaps it's because of body dysmorphia from eating disorders once out of control. Who knows. Doesn't matter much. I don't hate my body, I actually quite like it - it's just sometimes isn't speaking the same language as me.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.



Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

So much of what you and Dapper are saying rings true for me. identifying as TG, however (as you point out), does not fit as I understand it. Transition is the operative term that just doesn't work for me. But, transcending the binary or even transforming it sure would work! And I do know TG folks that actually feel these to be more representative of who they are.

Hummmmm.... trans has been a term that has caused painful division among butches, I believe. I would really like for us to bring an end to this. I know that before I ever identified as butch or even became actively involved in the B-F community, I did not have the kinds of negative interactions that I have within it. This seems so weird to me and been painful. I honestly have not come to any conclusions about this that really answer my internal questions of why this has been my experience after knowing TG people since I was a kid. Sometimes, I do feel that it is essentially about competition, which I don't like accepting.... at all!

[chefhottie25]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.



Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

i agree with both of you. i feel genderfull too. i identify as a boi, but don't feel TG. I bind but not for passing purposes. I don't prefer being referred to as hy over she. i am both...or maybe neither. a good friend and i recently talked about third gender. she said that she views me as non gender conforming. that really seemed to fit me well. i often struggle to find a sense of belonging in the bf community because i don't identify as butch or femme or TG. My outward appearance and my personal care regiments are masculine. However, I do embrace my femme qualities emotionally. I exhibit and express feelings that would be described more as feminine. I feel like a boi but i don't feel like i want to transition. i am not meant to be a male...but i also don't feel female. it is very difficult to explain...and difficult for me to fully understand myself. i hope this thread will generate discourse that will help me to understand it.

[Darth Denkay]

Hey all,

So glad to see this thread started. It's 12:30 in the morning so I gotta get some sleep but will definitely be back. Really looking forward to what we can do here. Thanks Met!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Hey all,

So glad to see this thread started. It's 12:30 in the morning so I gotta get some sleep but will definitely be back. Really looking forward to what we can do here. Thanks Met!

Hey, Kayden!

Glad you will be joining the third/other gendered thread!

It is nice that a thread was started for this group of butches and/or for discussion around this type of butch!

What a brilliant thread.

I identify with much that has already said by folks who can say it far more eloquently than I.

My mum used to tell me that from the age of 6yrs I was espousing that I wasn't a boy or a girl but something else entirely. In latter years upon discovering the bf community and a whole load of 'new labels' I appropriated the term 'genderqueer' for myself but it still doesn't sit quite right somehow.

[daisyfm]

Good thread. I understand what is talked about here.
I would also like to say something that gets me in trouble a lot, but I truly think is important to mention. I think femme is a gender as well..maybe a fourth gender or a third alongside butch, I don't know.
I don't feel I am just a woman, or just a lesbian, I am a femme and this gender of mine does say a lot about me. I hope others feel the same way.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

ETA: Because I think it's significant.. what probably appeared to some over the years as my questioning male versus masculine is probably better represented as fighting a battle within myself with my pieces of my own identity. If that makes any sense to anyone but me.

It makes sense to me. Thank you for mentioning it.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

You know, some parts of your experience don't resonate with me--for instance, the part about experiencing feminine as something "other" which is not related to gender, or your body speaking a different language than you do--but then some parts of it resonate SO strongly!! And I just absolutely love your last paragraph. Like parallel bicycles, that's a wonderful metaphor.

Other people do think I'm aligned, gender and body, and it makes my gender invisible to them. My gender is Femme. It is not the same gender as Woman, which is what people assume. Over the years I've gotten so much resistance and so much confusion that I've just given up and for the sake of having coherent conversations, I've starting referring to myself as a woman again... but my gender is Femme.

[AtLast]

I know several butches that identify Butch as their gender. So, why not Femme as gender? And why can't this also be 3rd-Gendered, or part of the other gender modalities that are being brought out??

Thinking that Dylan's earlier post about TG women/femmes resonates here, especially when someone feels they might get flack for it.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Third or Other Genders have existed in recorded history as long as woman and man. Genders which fall between the two more recognized and common genders, gender which is not simply one or the other but usually more apt to be felt as both. I'm not surprised to see a lot of butches who embrace their third gender, though third gender runs the gamut of sexes and sexual orientations, it seems only logical.

I think in life (and sometimes even B-F communities), we often experience a unique difficulty to find a place when third gender is not among the accepted "check one of the two boxes" ready made answers of society. Even internally our own grasp of gender growing up is a byproduct of that binary society so still for some it can take a longer time in understanding or acceptance of it... or even explaining oneself where everyone wants to know "are you he or she?" (I've just replied for years, pronouns don't squick me either way).

But anyway, one simple and also best descriptive and fav things I've heard is, "You have the expressive heart of a female, but instrumental mind of a male"... though it's clearly it's all coming from the mind, it feels right as I feel as both male and female within*.

Ok, as we know, gender is between the ears not the legs**... for myself I'm speaking of being both genders between the ears, as a person who is full of, accepts and embraces both. For all intents and purposes in life I'm just me. I don't wear Tee-shirts with third gender symbols nor am I involved in any big movements... I'm just not a big political person and honestly I never talk about this stuff real life and I'm not really into labels... but I'm curious about others who may feel similar to me.

With that, I hope to hear some others stories or thoughts on it.

Peace,
Metropolis

*To quell misunderstanding beforehand... I'm referring to mind here, not clothing etc. which for me I have only male clothing, mannerisms etc.

**Though gender is of the mind, it's expressed outwardly in clothing, mannerisms etc. and sometimes body modification, it's almost a rule that "out" Third gendered people tend to express gender consistently in the opposite clothing to birth sex and bodies may be modified to fall more in line with the dual nature of our minds... IE: binding without the desire to consistently to pass as male etc.

(I've also heard of femmes who feel other gendered, but as butches seem to be a specific subset of Third Gender with many commonalities I've put this in the Butch Zone but would enjoy seeing a thread explaining how those femmes may experience and express other genders.)

Expanding the fine print of my OP to acknowledge to AtLast that it hasn't been forgotten by a long shot that some femmes do indeed often feels themselves as other gendered.

And I really would love to see a thread on that.