Third or Other Gender Butch

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I know this is going to sound a bit wierd to others but it's not to me...

I've always said that lots of people out there have more than one gender. I'm one of those. And one of my genders just don't fit in "woman" - it fits in feminine. It's non-female, non-male, but feminine. Sometimes when I get very body disphoric, I have trouble understanding why I don't fit into my own body the way I feel I should.

It used to be horrific at times. Now just slightly off-putting and annoying.

I wouldn't call it a third gender. It's it's own thing and plenty of people feel that way sometimes. Frankly, half the planet has probably felt that wierd seperation of self from body. in a "this isn't quite me" way.

Perhaps it's because of disociating, perhaps it's because of body dysmorphia from eating disorders once out of control. Who knows. Doesn't matter much. I don't hate my body, I actually quite like it - it's just sometimes isn't speaking the same language as me.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

It doesn't for me either, which is something I treasure. I also know that part of why I feel this way is because of living in a time when gender dynamics have opened-up and there is a place of comfort for me to have what is masculine and remain female and a woman. I accept the 3rdG and just feeling like a Female-Other. I guess it is elastic for me and freeing to have this mix. I already discussed the fusion in all of this for me with my lesbian sexuality, it really is about woman to woman for me. There is a spiritual balance for me as well and a connection to the archtypal woman, or The Great Mother that simply remders me female.

I do prefer being referred to she, her as far as pronouns, but it is not as big of a deal as it used to be. Again, I believe, due to the multi-facets of gender as we have come to know today. Not something I get angry about because I know I present as both masculine and feminine. Although, as the years have passed, my exterior seems more masculine.. yanno, menopause! Although, my body has always been more of what we traditionally consider masculine.

I just like my body as it is and am comfortable in it. But, I certainly get the struggles that other butches have with this. And I certainly know butches that deal with these issues in a multitude of ways.

I also recognize Femme as a gender as well as Butch (although not for myself).

It feels like that for most of us in this discussion that the traditional binary of male and female is the culprit. But, I feel that these have been expanded and do not remain as they were. Plus, other gender identifications are available to us all.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

[AtLast]

Something that keeps coming up for me is that as a child (born in 1951), I had two friends (girls) that later transitioned into men (their identification). We grew up in a small town and to be honest, the term lesbian wasn't even part of the vocabulary there!

What has always struck me is that both of these friends at a very young age, said they felt they had the body of a female and the spirit of a male. Later as adolescents, it was body of a woman and spirit of a man. This is a phrase very common to transpeople and I believe throughout all of the levels of gender we are discussing.

This always fit for me in terms of the mind-body-spirit paradigm that just is a balancing force for me. Early in life this was simply an internal connection and place of balance and peace. Later, as science progressed in gender theory, and I was exposed to the world and education more, this became a more viable explanation for what these friends felt and struggled with. It also allowed me to ponder my own internal questions about being a masculine woman as well as dealing with my sexuality.

Sometimes when I have conversations with much younger people around all of this, I am so amazed at how far this has all come in my lifetime. Not everyone has the same three dimensional paradigm need for congruency. But, this certainly helped me understand my childhood friend's struggles and need to find their own harmony.

I do think, however, that transitioning without really investigating its many facets and risks (there are some) can be hurtful. Generalized oversimplification of this process is dangerous. I do see (and have experienced) a form of pressure within the B-F community to transition. It has become a cultural phenomenon, I believe, with a sub-culture concerning butches. There is much positive in this and there exists some negative as well in terms of really allowing a person to be who they are (has to go both ways). And as HoneyBarbara has pointed out in many posts, there exists a differences in US butches around this and other countries.

There are a whole lot of us that embrace being female-bodied and butch along with being of another gender that live in harmony and wouldn’t have it any other way. Because it is simply who we are.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

I have said more than once in several places around the net that I claim at least 2 genders.........butch and woman being primary genders for me. I live in those 2 genders the large majority of my time.

I have also said that I do have a male id'd part of me (possibly another gender I guess) within the kink community. My leather Top/Dom space is Syr and really has nothing to do with woman and probably little to do with butch. And yes, sometimes it bites me and feels incongruent.....but I do like that space..........I just don't live it 24/7.

I rarely bottom (and don't have a submissive bone in my body) in the kink world.........when I do, I just don't think about it in terms of gender.........I think about in terms of bottom energy.

-----------
Of course femme is also a gender.........I can't even figure why anyone would say it's not.......makes no sense to me.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't related, born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity... even know I am all they're actually separate things... just as they are for you.

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.

Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

That's fine Bull, I wasn't debating anything either, I'm happy that all those things and being a woman are in line for you.

Good day.