Difference between masculine and male identified?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I am finding more and more that younger people take this stance and actually are breaking down the binary in a whole new way. Every generation makes its distinctive mark. This is a good thing.

I don't think you are the only one that feels the discomfort in butch threads. Sometimes I think we need some branching out with our topic area zones. maybe we need a BOI ZONE? Are there other identifications like this that may not (I am only talking from my own feelings, have no idea about everyone else) be represented well within the identification zones we have?

Just a random thought as I do see a younger generation coming up that really does seem far less caught up with butch, femme, trans, intergendered.

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.